 Astral Melee & Sorcery, For Doc. Funk. |
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 Oct 29 2004, 04:17 PM
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#26
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Moving Target  Group: Members Posts: 292 Joined: 24-September 04 Member No.: 6,701  |
As some have pointed out, it's just flat out irrational to have Sorcery drain the users in Astral Combat. Basically doing this, the very people who should excel in this environment are penalized while mundanes are not.
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Oct 29 2004, 04:18 PM
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#27
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Running Target Group: Members Posts: 1,049 Joined: 24-March 03 Member No.: 4,323 |
Eh, I guess the drain thing just doesnt bother me much.
Pretend explanation I just made up: You aren't channeling magic through yourself, you're weilding ambient mana in a rudimentary way. Drain comes from channeling mana, as is evidenced by every other drain-causing use of magic. Those forms of magic require a finer degree of mana control, which is why you have to use your body as a conduit and suffer drain. |
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Oct 29 2004, 04:22 PM
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#28
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Manus Celer Dei Group: Dumpshocked Posts: 17,013 Joined: 30-December 02 From: Boston Member No.: 3,802 |
Why on earth should a visitor (projecting mage) excel at things on the Astral as compared to someone who spends their life there (dual-natured critter)? ~J |
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Oct 29 2004, 04:27 PM
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#29
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Moving Target Group: Members Posts: 214 Joined: 7-January 03 From: Wilton NH Member No.: 3,872 |
Dual-Natured creatures are bound by both astral AND physical law. Projecting Mages are only bound by astral law. |
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Oct 29 2004, 04:32 PM
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#30
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Running Target Group: Members Posts: 1,049 Joined: 24-March 03 Member No.: 4,323 |
Because those things have never been trained how to use the ambient mana to their advantage. Thats like giving an ally spirit unarmed combat: 6 and then wondering why something that has lived on the physical plane for its entire life, but only has an unarmed combat skill of 3, can't fight it effectively. Afterall, the ally is an astral being that is only a visitor to the physical plane. |
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Oct 29 2004, 04:39 PM
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#31
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Moving Target Group: Members Posts: 198 Joined: 26-December 03 Member No.: 5,935 |
I'll give you that this is probably what the writers were thinking when they decided to let mages use sorcery for fighting. By that rationale a mage shouldn't take drain while casting spells on the astral. Why draw it through you when you can craft it using the ambient mana? (I'm not picking on you Jason, I know you haven't had a chance to think it through).
Thus a Astrally perceiving mage couldn't use Sorcery to combat an astral foe. |
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Oct 29 2004, 04:41 PM
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#32
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Moving Target Group: Members Posts: 214 Joined: 7-January 03 From: Wilton NH Member No.: 3,872 |
Why not? He can cast spells on either. He can use sorcery on either. |
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Oct 29 2004, 04:43 PM
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#33
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Manus Celer Dei Group: Dumpshocked Posts: 17,013 Joined: 30-December 02 From: Boston Member No.: 3,802 |
Right. Training. Not because the character type "should" excel. ~J |
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Oct 29 2004, 04:43 PM
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#34
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Moving Target Group: Members Posts: 198 Joined: 26-December 03 Member No.: 5,935 |
I'm not saying he can't cast spells at him. But just engaging him in basic astral combat while perceiving makes nosense. As you said, he's bound by both the physical and astral.
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Oct 29 2004, 04:49 PM
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#35
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Moving Target Group: Members Posts: 214 Joined: 7-January 03 From: Wilton NH Member No.: 3,872 |
Casting spells isn't melee combat though. Thats ranged combat. I think I see where your coming from. In my mind using sorcery as astral melee doesn't have to involve any physical movement. You can think of it as the mage changing his astral self to be caustic to the spirit thats attempting to melee him. The creature goes to strike but stops just short of damaging the mage due to the intense pain the mage's alterations cause. Or something similar. The important part is the mage is using his *skill* at manipulating mana to counter or even initiate melee combat against another astral form. He could just as easily pull out a weapon focus and go house as well, but mage's who have no physical combat skills should still be able to kick ass and take names against non-physical entities since its what they know. |
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Oct 29 2004, 04:56 PM
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#36
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Moving Target Group: Members Posts: 198 Joined: 26-December 03 Member No.: 5,935 |
That sounds more like a metamagical effect, and I'd be fine if that's how it worked. But it seems odd to me that someone who is completely untrained in combat but really good at doing something unrelated to combat can beat the snot out of someone who is actually trained to fight, or a preditory animal in some cases. Also it leaves the conjuring adept out in the cold.
It's like saying I'm really good at underwater combat because I'm a great swimmer (<- analogy just popped in my head, but I'm going to try and run with it). |
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Oct 29 2004, 04:57 PM
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#37
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Running Target Group: Members Posts: 1,049 Joined: 24-March 03 Member No.: 4,323 |
I dont feel as if you are picking on me, so dont worry. I maintain that, for me, personally, it just doesnt matter... but this isnt a particularly good "disproof" of that explanation I made up, so I'll go ahead and address it anyway. All spells have to be channeled through the casting mage's body - be it his physical body or his astral form. Why? Well, the obvious answer is "thats how theyre trained to do it." But, under the interpretation I proposed, the act of channeling it through their form is what allows the precise control required. Weilding ambient mana directly isnt something that can be done with finesse, even when you are astrally projecting. So even projecting mages still have to bring the magic through themselves in order to control it sufficiently to produce a spell effect. Thus, drain. |
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Oct 29 2004, 05:03 PM
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#38
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Moving Target Group: Members Posts: 214 Joined: 7-January 03 From: Wilton NH Member No.: 3,872 |
The key though is that Astral combat really has no direct relation to physical combat. Those who are dual natured are bound by their physical sides as well so they must fight physically to some extent even astrally. (Unless thay are trained to fight only astrally via sorcery.) Its easier to visualize this if you look at the astral side of things first. Two mages both astrally projecting (one in tokyo, one in seattle) meet over midway to have a battle royal. Physicallity or even physical ability have absolutely nothing to do with how the fight will turn out. Its a battle of wills. Now, if we take the winner of that battle and send him back to his body, and once he gets there he realizes he's been followed by the other mages ally spirit, now that he's merely percieving instead of projecting shouldn't mean he's any less capable of defending himself on the astral. (Initiative issues aside). |
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Oct 29 2004, 05:13 PM
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#39
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Moving Target Group: Members Posts: 198 Joined: 26-December 03 Member No.: 5,935 |
If he was still astrally projecting then yes, I'd agree. Once he's back in his meat I've got more of a problem with this.
Though having a seperate Astral Combat skill or basing it off of magic rating still makes the most sense to me. Would you say then that I could fight using my conjuring skill? After all that is a will linked use of mana. Hell, you could even look at it as an ham fisted application of banishing. |
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Oct 29 2004, 05:15 PM
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#40
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Manus Celer Dei Group: Dumpshocked Posts: 17,013 Joined: 30-December 02 From: Boston Member No.: 3,802 |
While mages with no astral combat skills should get their asses kicked since it's what they don't know. OR have to use Sorcery and take Drain, because it's what happens when they do anything similar. ~J |
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Oct 29 2004, 05:24 PM
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#41
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Moving Target Group: Members Posts: 214 Joined: 7-January 03 From: Wilton NH Member No.: 3,872 |
To be honest, as a GM, I could probably be talked into Conjuring instead of Sorcery in this case. As far as drain.. yes for spells... no for astral melee. At least thats how it is for my games. They are different applications of the same skill. One requires drain, one doesn't. Astral Melee is an application of the Sorcery (or possibly Conjuring) skill. Spells are another application. Dispelling is another. Some of those require drain checks, some don't. Heck, I'd allow Astral Melee as a specialization of Sorcery too. |
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Oct 29 2004, 08:48 PM
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#42
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Beetle Eater Group: Dumpshocked Posts: 4,797 Joined: 3-June 02 From: Oblivion City Member No.: 2,826 |
Actually, they could use their Unarmed Combat skill (or Armed Combat with a Weapon Foci). Sorcery as melee is a bonus option, a way around requiring mages purchase a melee skill to combat Wards, Spirits, and other astral encounters. I agree with Doctor Funk on this one. Astral Combat should be its own skill, and one that grants maneuvers to make it worth while (Close Combat, Focus Power, Evasion, Zoning, Fly By Attack). Fly By Attack allows a projecting combatant to add Astral Combat Pool dice in a surprise test that they initiate. |
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Oct 30 2004, 02:16 AM
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#43
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Runner Group: Members Posts: 2,751 Joined: 8-August 03 From: Neighbor of the Beast Member No.: 5,375 |
I may be coming on late here but I don't like the idea of drain for astral combat. By the canon (AFAIK) there are no rules extended melee combat. In theory, as long as you were not rendered dead or unconcious, you could engage in melee combat until the cows come home. Or you succumbed to the efects of sleep deprevation. (Are there rules for that?)
I kinda like Doc's MA rules for astral combat but that's just one more skill that a mage would have to pump points (BPs or KPs) into. edit: if ain't broke don't fix it. (even it don't make sense :)) |
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Oct 30 2004, 02:53 AM
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#44
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Immortal Elf Group: Validating Posts: 7,999 Joined: 26-February 02 Member No.: 1,890 |
Only if he wants to excel at astral combat. You'll note that they can still default to Sorcery if absolutely necessary. The change just makes sure that a studious type isn't the Bruce Lee of the astral plane without specifically training to be, though they are more than capable of defending themselves.
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Oct 30 2004, 03:04 AM
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#45
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Runner Group: Members Posts: 2,751 Joined: 8-August 03 From: Neighbor of the Beast Member No.: 5,375 |
I see your point. Unfortunately I suffer from a rare form of "Reverse Munchkism" wherein I crunch those numbers to get the best well rounded char I can. I have enough trouble scaring up points for unarmed combat, let alone astral combat.
That being said, I'm already thinking about an astral martial artist character...*starts crunching numbers* :) |
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Oct 30 2004, 03:08 AM
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#46
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Canon Companion Group: Members Posts: 8,021 Joined: 2-March 03 From: The Morgue, Singapore LTG Member No.: 4,187 |
Ahhh, I was once infected with that bug too... Come to think of it, I am still infected :D. You are suffering from the Maximus Pointus Effecious strain of Munchkinitis. |
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Oct 30 2004, 03:10 AM
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#47
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Immortal Elf Group: Validating Posts: 7,999 Joined: 26-February 02 Member No.: 1,890 |
Again, you realize that you don't need Astral Combat if you have Unarmed Combat/Martial Arts, right? :) It's basically just an option for weak magicians (which is why it's linked to Willpower instead of Strength). Adepts will usually find it useless compared to other options... especially those who can't project. And for mages, it's like Underwater Combat for mundanes; useful if you regularly engage in underwater combat, but you can live without it.
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Oct 30 2004, 03:18 AM
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#48
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Runner Group: Members Posts: 2,751 Joined: 8-August 03 From: Neighbor of the Beast Member No.: 5,375 |
Ahhhh, I see. That does make sense. Is there any cure? Or at least a treatment? (Other than the limited satisfaction of a spellslinging, sharpshooting, hard hitting human character made within the limits of the character creation rules w/o taking more than 4 points of edges/flaws?) Am I doomed? :D
Do-ugh! Yep. You're right. Got ahead of myself. Two months away from the 'Shock and I'm right back into my old habits of "Post first. Analyze later." Sorry. :) |
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Oct 30 2004, 05:24 AM
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#49
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Moving Target Group: Members Posts: 903 Joined: 11-December 02 From: The other end of your computer screen Member No.: 3,724 |
I like Doc's idea. I have since he mentioned it in the other Thread.
I'm glad to see this thread is going much smoother than the other one was. It would be fun to actually make a character who was bent on kicking ass souly in the Astral Combat. Could be some interesting things there. Here's a question I have though. It reads that Dual-Natured and the like can use their Combat Pool in the Astral. Are we going to let the mage use their Magic Pool (or other optional pools? don't think spell would work here rationally, but maybe??) in the Astral. Also...something else cocks my head as strange. (was going to post it here, but realized it's too far off topic to post here. instead, Astral Melee & Dual Natured Beings) |
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Oct 30 2004, 05:27 AM
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#50
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Manus Celer Dei Group: Dumpshocked Posts: 17,013 Joined: 30-December 02 From: Boston Member No.: 3,802 |
SR3 Page 44. There's an explicitly defined astral combat pool.
~J |
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