[X] My Assistant

[Stumps]

I got that, thanks for the reference...my question was rather that since the Combat Pool can be used in the Astral Plane (aside from an Astral Pool aparently), will the Mages get another Pool?

[Stumps]

Actually...

SR3, p44, Astral Combat Pool:"...Because the physical Attribute of Quickness does not exist on the astral, Astral Combat Pool is determined by adding Intelligencce plus Willpower plus Charisma, divided by 2, and rounded down."

SR3, p174, Astral Combat Tests:"Astrally perceiving characters and other dual being use their normal physical Attributes, skills and Combat Pool in astral combat."

um...err...That is horribly inconsistant with itself IMO.

[Herald of Verjig...]

The first refers to astral projection.

[Jason Farlander]

No its not. Astral combat pool is used for projecting mages. Percieving mages and other dual-natured beings use their normal combat pool. It seems pretty explicit to me.

[Stumps]

But the wierd part isn't WHO uses WHICH pool.
It's that it plainly says that "the physical Attribute of Quickness does not exist on the astral", but says "Astrally perceiving characters and other dual beings (can) use (their) Combat Pool"

Combat Pool: (Quickness + Intelligence + Will) / 2
"Astrally perceiving characters use (their) Combat Pool (for Astral Combat Tests even though) the physical Attribute of Quickness does not exist on the astral"
*cocks head sideways* huh??

It would make more sense if they used an Astral Pool but were limited to their Physical limitations regardless how great the roll came out.

[Jason Farlander]

Youre really just making it more complicated than it is. No physical attributes exist on the astral... its the astral. So a purely astral being does not have a quickness score, and, thus, it does not make sense for a purely astral being to be using a normal combat pool. Hence, an astral combat pool exists.

Basic rules:

- if the being is mundane or dual-natured, use combat pool, since quickness does indeed exist on the physical plane, and such beings are limited (or, in some cases, actually empowered) by their physical natures.

- if the being lacks a physical body, and, thus, lacks the quickness attribute used to calculate normal combat pool, use the astral combat pool.

... And, really, that's it. Its not contradictory, nor is it particularly confusing.

Note, however, that the "Astral pool" and the "astral combat pool" are two completely separate pools.

[Stumps]

Ah, further reading reveals that you are correct and that the rules are consistent with themselves when you state what you are saying and read SR3, p263, Spirits & Dragons/Combat/Dice Pools/Combat Pool, which states that a Spirit that materializes in the Physical form recieves a Combat Pool just like NPC's calculated from their Attributes (that were made from their Essence).


It makes sense. I wasn't saying that what the aim of the system was doing didn't make sense.
Just that it read like a counter-logic was happening with saying that something doesn't exist in a certain place but these guys can use it there.
The reason, it appears, is because they are limited to their physical ability and thus their Astral Combat Pool would be the same as their Combat Pool if it were made as a seperate pool, so to make another for them and guidlines to it's ability being limited to their physical capabilities would be redundant and overly complex to reach the same end.

Clear now! Thanks

[Stumps]

Still on the table however is the Sorcery option for Astral Perception as an alternative Pool for Astral Combat.

Doc's idea seems good.
Any comments further on that, or has everyone pretty much thought that Doc's idea works?

[Jason Farlander]

Well, I remain unswayed in my opinion that the system is fine as is and doesnt need changing. However, Dr F's proposition to simply create a separate astral combat skill is what I would do if I were to suddenly decide that I have stopped liking the astral combat use of sorcery.

[Stumps]

I think the issue that he has with it is that it makes the Magician automatically good at Astral Combat just because they are good at Sorcery which may or may not be the case at all.

So they can fling spells...ok, does that mean they have also mastered Astrally kicking the crap out of a Spirit with their astral fist. Maybe, but it may also not be the case.
If we were discussing philosphy this would be a falacy to claim that one thing is an absolute because of it's relation to another thing that is an absolute.

(S = good at Sorcery, A = good at Astral Combat, -> = then, <> = possibly true)
S -> A is a falacy

S -> <>A is not a falacy

(For a read up on Philosophical forumla like that above, Click Here)

[Ol' Scratch]

Actually I dislike it because it doesn't make sense for Sorcery (as opposed to Conjuring, Enchanting, or any other magical skill that includes the manipulation of mana and astral space in one form or another) to be a Combat Skill in addition to a Magical Skill while none of the others are.

[Stumps]

That is true in it's own right, but I really do see it as a question of making sense with the whole ordeal of saying that because someone can cast a spell, they can astraly fight well...that doesn't make sense to me at all.

Nowhere else in the game is an assumption made like that.

[Ol' Scratch]

Computers comes close, but at least it's consistant. Even then, it all revolves around your ability to program on the fly and speed at running programs to do your bidding, not (meta)physically swinging a sword or throwing a punch.

[Stumps]

Yep...so I think I'd agree that Astral Combat is a good addition in place of Sorcery for such an Astral Combat Skill that covers the ability to fight in the astral plane.
It would also remove the silly happening of Adepts having Sorcery when they can't cast magic just so they can use it for astral combat.