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> Hold out's with a punch, are they useless?
Snow_Fox
post Oct 31 2004, 01:37 PM
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Ok kids, I've been playing SR since the 1st Ed and sinces then Hold Outs have been almost a joke, that thing in your ankle holster for when all else fails, and it it's always found when you're risked, or under the men's formal wear or in a ladie's bag, but unless loaded with fletchettes, or you've got really high rolls, it's pretty much useless against in the stock boys at Stuffer Shack.

BUT on S&W's RL web sight, they are currently advertising a .32 magnum with a weight of just 14 oz. Now I don't think it would be terribly accurate and the recoil would be, imposing, and at more than $400 it is comperable in cost to heavy pistolsbut that certainly counts as a powerful hold out.

I wondered if anyone here had come up with similarly potent hold outs?
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Austere Emancipa...
post Oct 31 2004, 02:21 PM
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As far as SR is concerned, you'd just have to make a custom Light Pistol or even a Heavy Pistol and use design and customization options to make it as concealable as possible -- you can easily get to a Hold-Out Pistol Concealability and beyond.

IRL, you've got guns like the the Downsizer in .45 ACP and .357 Magnum (although the length of barrel probably drops the .357 down to similar energy levels as a 3" 9x19mm) and Derringers in .44 Special, etc. How much punch these guns actually have, I don't know. When you get below 3" barrel length, muzzle velocity suffers a lot. It'd be fair to say a .44 Spl Derringer with a 3" barrel would be quite a bit more lethal than the 4L Hold-Outs of SR, however.
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JaronK
post Oct 31 2004, 02:26 PM
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Well, of course with the custom pistol design rules you can make a reasonable hold out... go go broken rules applied to underpowered items! There doesn't seem to be a limit on clip size other than 50, so in theory this thing could have 50 rounds in a clip (but just to get close to reasonable I'm going to say 15... since they're flechettes and evidently sliverguns can pack 30, 15 sounds reasonable.

The Pocket Protector:
5M(f)
Conceal 10 (11 vs. MAD)
RC: 0
Mode: SA
Weight: .9
Ammo: 15c
FCU: 0
DPV 484
Cost 2420

Comes with Internal Smartgun II, partial ceramic construction (hence the 11 conceal vs. MAD). So it's super concealable, and does 5M against unarmoured targets. In theory, you'd use that concealability to get to the target when they're not armoured.

JaronK
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Snow_Fox
post Oct 31 2004, 02:49 PM
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ouch. but the big thing with that is that it's firing fletchetts to get it's kick.
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Zeel De Mort
post Oct 31 2004, 03:01 PM
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For an actual hold out pistol about the best you can do is 5L, conc 12, with an internal SL-2. With either EX or APDS rounds, most armoured targets are still looking at a 2 or 3 to resist anyway.

Alternatively you could go for a machine pistol at 7L, conc 10 or so. Load up with the same ammo types and you might have half a chance of causing people some problems.

Or in fact a heavy pistol, 10M, conc 9, BF etc.

None of them are great really, anything less than conc 12 and you're pretty much guaranteed to lose it in a physical search.

Your best bet is probably to use chemicals, or just roll a couple of dozen dice to attack. Resisting 2L+20 is no fun.
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Wounded Ronin
post Oct 31 2004, 03:10 PM
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I always thought it was funny how Unarmed Combat is vastly more effective than your basic hold out pistol. Why were they even invented when you could punch harder?
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Kagetenshi
post Oct 31 2004, 04:13 PM
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My personal method of addressing this is allowing called shots to bypass armor at distances of skill*0.5 meters or under, which makes at least moderately skilled users vaguely more intimidating. Without houserules, though, they've got their uses but they all involve huge amounts of skill against low-Body, low Combat Pool opponents.

~J
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Critias
post Oct 31 2004, 04:15 PM
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Because if you shove a holdout in someone's face and pull the trigger, they don't get to turn it into an opposed roll (like with unarmed combat). You give them a double tap (if using an SL2, a double tap to the head), and you've got pretty good odds of messing up someone's world, especially if you pick that crucial moment to spend some CP and KP.

It doesn't matter how strong his Kung Fu is, if you have a gun.
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Ol' Scratch
post Oct 31 2004, 04:43 PM
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Using the Cannon Companion's creation rules, you can do the following...

Heavy Hold-Out Pistol
Conceal 8(invisibile), Ammo 1(b), Mode SA, Damage 9M, Weight 0.95kg (Shadowrun weights, mind you)
Avail 6/36 hrs, Cost 1,225 nuyen, SI 2, Legal 6P-E, RC --

Design Notes: Heavy Pistol Frame, Ammo Loading (Break Action), Ceramic Components 3, Improved Concealability 2, Weight Decrease 6.

Note that it also has 0.75 FCU remaining (without having to use Improved FCU), meaning it has room for an integral Smartlink and a few other toys. The price also assumes the rare prototype weirness that those rules force on all weapons, too.

I dunno if that matches the above referenced weapon, but I'd say it's a pretty nice hold-out. :) If your GM allows the Barrel Reduction option for it, it gets ugly with its Concealability though.
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ShadowGhost
post Oct 31 2004, 05:24 PM
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Hey holdouts do have their use - especially for fast sammies in a surprise situation. If the sammy has really high reaction, and gets to surprise everyone, not only does he go first, but the targets don't get combat pool to dodge, or soak damage. So a 4L with EX Ammo and 6 successes becomes a 6D - and that's the first shot. Sure they're rolling twos for Damage resistance - on Body Alone.


With a SLII, you don't need to be an adept to kill with it, just one of the fastest in a surprise situation, and throw all your combat pool into it. And if you're ambidextrous, it's a double bonus.

Against Humans, Elves and Dwarfs it's quite effective. A Troll or Ork.... not really.

A hold out is really just for a totally hidden pistol for emergency situations, and means of slowing down opponents while you get the hell out. It's not for extended combat situations or dealing massive damage during a firefight.
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Edward
post Oct 31 2004, 05:27 PM
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In the hands of a skilled gun man a holdout with an SL2 and flechette rounds is well worth carrying. Especially if you get a model with ceramic construction and only a very small clip (so the ammunition doesn’t set of the MADs) your at target number 4 to make a called shot to negate armour dealing 4M damage and throwing as many dice at it as possible. A double tap should be effective against any target you couldn’t approach without a bigger weapon.

If you want more punch with less skill and have money to burn load your holdout (full ceramic and SL2 if you can get it) with capsule rounds containing the drugs of your choice. As mixtures of drugs work better than high doses of one drug you should consider loading your clip with several different drugs in alternating sequence. This also has the advantage that the capsule rounds are undetectable by a MAD (assuming you use the plastic cases used for the lethal plastic rounds).

Making a hold out useful is all about appropriate ammunition, appropriate targets and being very good at what you do.

Edward
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Clyde
post Oct 31 2004, 05:57 PM
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"Hold-out pistols cannot mount any accessories" (BBB pg 276).

Do you guys take that to mean that an internal smartlink is not an accessory?

Frankly, I've often considered houseruling the holdouts and light pistols up to 4M and 6M respectively. That puts them in line with the submachinegun (which sure ain't firing heavy pistol ammo) and makes them more useful without being overpowering. It's ridiculous that you might literally have to shoot a guy ten times to kill him: unless you're using a .22 short . . .

Also I'd allow holdouts to mount accessories at double cost.
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Zeel De Mort
post Oct 31 2004, 06:15 PM
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I take it to mean you can't mount accessories on it that would normally go on the top/under mounts etc. Designing it with an internal smartlink is okay if you ask me.

Remember also that the concealability is halved for a physical search, so you really have to get that up to at least 12 to stand much chance of sneaking anything in anywhere that you'll be searched, ceramic components or not. Unless your weapon breaks down into a collection of toiletries or something..
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Lindt
post Oct 31 2004, 08:45 PM
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Sa Puzzler anyone?
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Tanka
post Oct 31 2004, 09:14 PM
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Your average kid at Stuffer Shack, or even your average wageslave, is going to get intimidated by any gun pointed at him. (Obviously they get "more intimidated" by larger guns.)

What's a Hold-Out good for? Intimidation versus "average Joe" targets, formal wear (look like you know how to use it and you may not have to) and for that surprise under your coat when they tell you to drop your weapons. ("I never use it! Of course I forgot it was there!")
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Wounded Ronin
post Oct 31 2004, 11:52 PM
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QUOTE (Critias @ Oct 31 2004, 11:15 AM)
Because if you shove a holdout in someone's face and pull the trigger, they don't get to turn it into an opposed roll (like with unarmed combat).  You give them a double tap (if using an SL2, a double tap to the head), and you've got pretty good odds of messing up someone's world, especially if you pick that crucial moment to spend some CP and KP. 

It doesn't matter how strong his Kung Fu is, if you have a gun.

Yeah, but in shadowrun the whole point is that 2 shots of 4L won't do much to a dangerous opponent who can theoretically then kung fu you later in the turn after you've blown all your combat pool on your hold out pistol shots.

Still, I suppose it does beat giving them a free attack on you if you're bad at HTH.
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Wounded Ronin
post Oct 31 2004, 11:53 PM
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QUOTE (Kagetenshi)
My personal method of addressing this is allowing called shots to bypass armor at distances of skill*0.5 meters or under, which makes at least moderately skilled users vaguely more intimidating. Without houserules, though, they've got their uses but they all involve huge amounts of skill against low-Body, low Combat Pool opponents.

~J

I thought that called shots can bypass armor anyway.
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Ol' Scratch
post Oct 31 2004, 11:55 PM
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Only if you use the lame FAQ/Errata ruling. 'Course that same ruling lets you destroy a main battle tank with a flechette-loaded Hold-Out Pistol, too.

This post has been edited by Doctor Funkenstein: Nov 1 2004, 12:02 AM
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Kagetenshi
post Oct 31 2004, 11:59 PM
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QUOTE (Wounded Ronin)
I thought that called shots can bypass armor anyway.

It was recently errataed that they can; my house rule supersedes that.

Also, before anyone brings up the objection that sniper rifles should be able to bypass armor too, a weapon with a base damage of 14S does not need to be made useful. A weapon with a base damage of 4L does.

~J
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Critias
post Nov 1 2004, 03:05 AM
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QUOTE (Wounded Ronin)
QUOTE (Critias @ Oct 31 2004, 11:15 AM)
Because if you shove a holdout in someone's face and pull the trigger, they don't get to turn it into an opposed roll (like with unarmed combat).  You give them a double tap (if using an SL2, a double tap to the head), and you've got pretty good odds of messing up someone's world, especially if you pick that crucial moment to spend some CP and KP. 

It doesn't matter how strong his Kung Fu is, if you have a gun.

Yeah, but in shadowrun the whole point is that 2 shots of 4L won't do much to a dangerous opponent who can theoretically then kung fu you later in the turn after you've blown all your combat pool on your hold out pistol shots.

Still, I suppose it does beat giving them a free attack on you if you're bad at HTH.

Well, if nothing else, the two 4L shots (and it's worth pointing out the "two" part, that's another benefit of a firearm over a melee attack, you get to wack 'em twice) can give him some TN penalties when he closes the gap, and becomes one with his inner Bruce Lee. Even just a +1TN can make all the difference in the world once the fists start flying, remember.

A pair of armor-bypassing basic holdout shots (say Pistols of 6, split a low/average 8 CP between both shots, that's 10 dice at TN 4, twice), with fairly cheap and easy to find EX ammo (in a small quantity, at least) is still giving them 6L + 5 successes, on average, to deal with -- twice. If you sink a karma point or two into it, obviously, it gets that much more nasty.. that's nothing to sneeze at. On average rolls, it'd take about 42 Body dice to soak each shot down to nothin', or 10 CP per shot to fully dodge.

I dunno about everyone else's games, but in my games that's not too bad an opening/surprise shot, for "a measly hold out."

If someone's still capable of kicking your ass after spending enough CP and/or spending and burning enough KP to shrug all that off -- well, you deserve the beat-down, and there wasn't much you could do about it anyways (that is, having a heavy pistol instead of the hold out wouldn't have made much of a difference, if they've got 42 soak dice or 20+ combat pool to toss around).
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Wounded Ronin
post Nov 1 2004, 03:17 AM
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In order to bypass the armor wouldn't the TN be 8 since you have to make a called shot?

Furthermore, the second shot would get a +1 TN penalty on top of the called shot penalty for SA fire.
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Clyde
post Nov 1 2004, 03:52 PM
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And that assumes you've got a semi-auto holdout rather than the majority of them which are SS. . .
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Critias
post Nov 1 2004, 05:18 PM
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QUOTE (Wounded Ronin @ Oct 31 2004, 10:17 PM)
In order to bypass the armor wouldn't the TN be 8 since you have to make a called shot?

Furthermore, the second shot would get a +1 TN penalty on top of the called shot penalty for SA fire.

Assuming close range (when else would you be using a hold out) and the SL-2 built into it (which is easy enough to manage) -- you're looking at TN 4. The SL-2 processor lowers the called shot modifier to a +2, the SL itself gives a -2 TN -- voila, TN 4 for a called shot.

And it's rare not to have one point of recoil compensation, whether it be built into the weapon, or through having a high enough strength.

So, at the end of the day, you're looking at (base, not counting visibility, etc, because the whole thing's a hypothetical) two shots at TN 4. Like I said.

EDIT: I'm not implying there's something magical, special, and innately game-winning about a double-tap called shot, much less one made with a hold out, by the way. I'm just pointing out that they can be dangerous, especially when/if you've got surprise on your side (which is the whole point in hold outs, IRL as well as in game). They aren't a "worthless" firearm by any means. In the hands of someone with the right 'ware (SL2) and a decent skill, any firearm is more dangerous than no firearm.
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FlakJacket
post Nov 1 2004, 06:40 PM
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QUOTE (Critias)
The SL-2 processor lowers the called shot modifier to a +2, the SL itself gives a -2 TN -- voila, TN 4 for a called shot.

I thought it was one or the other- you took the normal -2TN or the +2TN for a Called Shot but not both? Even if the rules said you could do both, I'd be a little bit leary of allowing it. Just seems a little too powerful IMO.
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mfb
post Nov 1 2004, 06:46 PM
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uh, flak, my maths say that "+2 TN for called shot" and "-2 TN for all shots" is pretty much the same thing, given that the base modifier for a called shot is +4. making it one or the other pretty much negates SL-2s completely; may as well go with an SL-1, unless you want to add the rangefinder.
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