Lone Star, Garden variety fuzz or throwbacks? Options

[DocMortand]

This situation came up in my game - I've pretty much decided how I'm going to deal with it, but I'm curious what other people think.

The group got set up by the current uber-villian - created a fake group, set up with plastic surgery (don't have to worry about trid phantasm) and had them blow up a cop car. Lone Star went nuts and put a bounty on the runners heads, and the fake group disappeared - until the real group tracked em down.

Now. Exactly how would Lone Star react to third party people bringing in the stiffening corpses or two, and near dead third (and toss in a confession from the third saying they did it, but they're not the originals)?

This was done in the hopes Lone Star would do some if not all of the following:
1) Get rid of the bounty on the real runners, clearing their names
2) Get Lone Star to back off their contacts (who were being squeezed for information)
3) Get the 50,000 bounty per runner (even tho technically the bounty was on the real ones, not the fake ones)

Would Lone Star be confused as heck? Refuse to pay anything due to technical error? Throw the third parties in the hoosgow because they are dumping dead bodies on their porch (rather than calling the fuzz in to see the crime scene, ala CSI)? Something other than this? Or a combo of some or all of the above?

Fun situation, huh?

[iPad]

My consideration would be for lone star:

Whats cheapest option,
What saves face,
How convincing is either story?

[Herald of Verjig...]

Hmmm....

Arrest them all, seek out evidence to confirm or deny the real group's claims. Check for any unrelated crimes to prosecute on the living individuals.

If the Star finds enough evidence indicating that the mimics were at fault, that crime will be stricken from the real group. If the evidence is inconclusive, sentence all survivors for equal portions of the crime, plus anything else that can be linked to them.

[toturi]

Recruit a new PC and have him claim the prize, or better yet have a lawyer do that. The upside to this would be that Lone Star now believes they are dead. :D

[Fortune]

Remember that the Star can and probably will make use of Analyze Truth/Mind Probe type spells to get the facts. These things might not be admissible in court, but are quite valid tools for investigation.

[Ol' Scratch]

Nope. Those methods cannot be used to provide any evidence as its a violation of the Fifth Ammendment. If it can be proven that Lone Star used illegal means like that to gain any evidence whatsoever from a citizen, the case can be thrown out of court. Only assensing is considered a legal means to investigate or acquire evidence if memory serves.

The SINless are shit out of luck though.

[Tanka]

[Fortune]

[Ol' Scratch]

I don't know about SOTA:2064 as I haven't read it in depth, but those techniques are the equivalence of using torture as part of your investigation. The Fifth Amendment protects citizens from self-incrimination, period. Voluntarily allowing Lone Star to do it is one thing; that's on the level of lie-detector tests. But doing it just because they can is a no-no.

As for SOTA:2064, do you have a page reference that states that those spells are legal?

[Tanka]

Actually, Doc, the 5th is for USA. I don't know if UCAS has the same Bill of Rights that we do now...

[Ol' Scratch]

MitS suggests that it does. It's in the Law section. At least I'm 90% sure it does as I don't have my book handy.

[Sabosect]

Considering the establishment of the SIN system is the 14th amendment, UCAS probably does not have the same Bill of Rights we have.

They can use those spells on the runners, get the info, and let them go. If the runners are lucky, Lone Star won't make them disappear or arrest them for other crimes.

[DocMortand]

Well to throw more dice into the pool, so to speak, here is what Lone Star has as far as evidence.

1) One dead dwarf, known as "Slick", looks like runner named Lazarus with bounty 50,000. No SIN. Cause of death - poison and the fact that he has many chunks of flesh bitten out of him. Only has an obvious Lone Star service pistol (the Thunderhawk or whatever it's called). Any other equipment is not evident.

2) One dead ork, known as "Ralph", looks like runner named Jim with bounty 50,000. No SIN. Cause of death - same as 1) Note: Jim has already been cleared of wrongdoing - was in intensive care getting an eye replaced from an overflow of Devil Rats the previous week. No weapons.

3) One unconscious ork, known as "Roy", looks slightly more healthy than Slick and Ralph, has been medkitted and traumapatched to become stable. Also has been poisoned and bitten. No weapons.

4) One audio/(video?) testimony, of Roy admitting to the cop killing and setting up the group for a johnson who in turn betrayed them with insect spirits (explaining the poison/bites). He sounds woozy and not terribly coherent. Other voices on the tape have no names attached.

5) Eyewitness account of one Chaz and one Johnny Chang, who brought in 1-4. They claim to have found the bodies in cooperation with original group, who wishes to clear their name. The three fakes were found in a cemetary surrounded by ghouls (which they had to go through to get back out) Frankly, I don't think Lone Star cares much about ghouls, so I would throw that in there as ancillary but not pertinent to the investigation.

6) Eventually, the place where the bodies were found. At the place are some wrecked drones that match the type in the video tape of the cop killings, plus a drivable bike which matches the vid as well. (The runners didn't stick around - after surviving around 30+ ghouls they weren't anxious to search the place, for some odd reason) There are also corpses of around 20 ghouls that are all finished off with head shots. (I am assuming the cops don't stick around for long either...) There is blood everywhere.

Yes, I run a detailed game. Go figure...

[Guest_Crimsondude 2.0_*]

Fruit of the Poisonous Tree applies to all evidence gathered subsequent to the initial act. The evidence can be thrown out. There's nothing that says it must be thrown out.

It also only applies to the defendant attacking the illegal search since a third party does not have standing to challenge the admissibility. So you can still use poisoned fruit against another suspect.

Like I mentioned elsewhere the Fifth only applies to the Federal government, and there is no longer a 14th (Well, there is but it's not the same) to impose it upon the states. While every state now has a due process clause, there's nothing in the UCAS Constitution that requires a person in the state's jurisdiction to be provided with Due Process.

Federal habeas rights still exist, though. Except where they don't.

Of course, this assumes you're a SINner. SINless have virtually no rights.

[hyzmarca]

Actualy, I think that a mind probe, even a consentual one, would fall under hearsay rules. He told me "so and so" is no different than "I saw "so and so" when I probed his mind. In both cases, there is no way to independantly confirm the truth of the testimony. It is simply one person's word against another's.
Testimony of a mage casting analize truth would influance the jury's perception of a witness's credibility and, again, we only have the mage's word. Thus, it would probably be disallowed in most cases. However, the most likely exception would be perjury cases. Ancored or quickened analize truth spells would be very useful in ensuring that witnesses uphold their oath.

On the other hand, they are perfectly reasonable investigative techniques for they can lead to other evidence, so long as they are consentual or a warrent has been issued. If not, then any evidence that they lead to, directly or indirectly, will be thrown out. The entire case won't be thrown out unless that was the only evidence. There is also the "inevitiable discovery" doctrine, which means that, even if a mind probe and shock-gove interogation had led to the evidence, it can still be used if the prosecutor can show that it would have eventualy been found using lawful methods.


As for this case, which all the evidence it woul dbe difficult for Lone Star to deny the truth. However, the Star will may be curious about the poision. If the poision came from the ghouls, there aren't any problems. If it came from th erunners, there are potentially two counts of murder/manslaughter and another count attempted murder/assault with intent.

[toturi]

First of all, if the ringers did the dirty deed and they were disguised as the originals. Then evidence collected from the crime scene would correspond to the ringers (fingerprints, DNA, etc), not the originals (other than the looking like the originals).

[hyzmarca]

[LinaInverse]

[Guest_Crimsondude 2.0_*]

[Ol' Scratch]

Yeah, but what you're missing is that it's heresay on the cop's part. The cop is the one saying "the Mind Probe told me this" as opposed to a signed confession.

[hyzmarca]

Edit: The original content of this post based around flawed argument.


Normally, confessions are admissible, even verbal confessions. However, a mind probe isn't a confession. It is something else entirely. Also, it is nearly infallabile compared to other tests. Because of this, the reported results of a mind probe would prejudice the jury to the point where they would probably convict without evenconsidering other evidence.

The real problem is that the mind probe defeats the purpose of the advisarial system, if they are used cosistently then the only question would be the trustworthyness of the prober. If they were admissable it would be simple enough for any guilty defendant to hire a mage to probe his mind and make a liberal interperation of the results. Instant reasonable doubt.

This post has been edited by hyzmarca: Nov 1 2004, 01:14 PM

[DocMortand]

[lorthazar]

Given that Lone Star is a corp and has a reputation to uphold the answer to probelm depends on a lot of how the Runners handle things. If they take all evidence to Lone Star without having backups ready to be transmitted be sure to kill all characters with head shots from panther assault cannons for their stupidity. If they have the back ups then Lone Star might begrudgingly remove the bounty and help clear the 'criminals' but then more than likely arrest them for being SINless. Are we getting the picture here?

[LinaInverse]

If you want to get all "CSI" on us, then the bite marks are not just "by large animals". The bite marks would exactly correspond to the shape and size of roaches. A true CSI-type lab can tell the difference between a bite from a dog, human, wolf, etc. In most cases, they can even trace the breed.

The confession was woozy and if Lone Star cared a wit about coercion and civil rights, then they would have a justifiable issue with it. Right now though, I'm not getting that impression.

The DNA/fingerprints stunt might have been cute if the fakes had gotten away but because the fakes were found, the DNA and fingerprints are now going to work against them. Lone Star has the DNA and fingerprints of the perps who actually committed the crime because they went over the original crime scene with a fine toothed comb, right? Now 2 bodies/1 suspect with exact matching fingerprints and DNA show up delivered at their doorstep. In addition, the location that the witnesses will take Lone Star to has matching drones, the Lone Star's gun, powder burns on "Ralph's" body and easily identifiable places where the bodies/witnesses were found that can be confirmed by DNA (the runners didn't bother to cast Sterilize before picking them up). If you were Lone Star, what would you do? To be quite frank, "Roy" would have a hell of a hard time denying the crime, even if he didn't do it (confession or no confession).

[DocMortand]

Heh...that's the next question.

Does anyone know in canon sources what kind of investigative arm Lone Star has? I mean, this is not CSI, but 2059 (in this case).

Also - if they do issue bounties like the old Wild West days do they have a place where dead bounties can be delivered? I'm also pretty sure bounty hunters still require permits, I remember reading that somewhere in all my novels.