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 The Smiling Bandit, <strikes again!/ha-ha!> |
 Nov 4 2004, 05:26 AM
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#26
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Immortal Elf  Group: Validating Posts: 7,999 Joined: 26-February 02 Member No.: 1,890  |
I think his problem is that there are characters like IEs in the game. They are effectively invulnerable characters that you have no chance of ever having even a remote hope of giving a paper cut to even if you got your hands on an entire fleet of ballistic submarines. Using characters like that, from a gaming point of view, is on par with just saying "you will do as I say and there's nothing you can do about it. If I feel like double-crossing you, tough. If I feel like not paying you, tough. You're mine. Get used to it and quit your bitching or I'll kill you. Now shut up and continue with my [the GM's] story... or else." It's situations (and even the threat of situations) like that which are annoying. Even moreso when they're basically just regular elves with super Kung Fu powers, thus allowing them to be used any time a regular elf would be used. It's basically railroading at its worst. Powerful characters (mob bosses, megacorporate CEOs, etc.) are one thing. Even nearly omnipotent Great Dragons have their uses, especially since they generally operate through intermediaries rather than put themselves directly into a situation. Demi-gods walking in the guise of men who directly work with and against PCs (like Harley) are something else entirely. Especially in the hands of poor or inexperienced GMs who fall for the temptation of "look at how cool my NPCs are! Sit back and listen to my story... oh, and sometimes I'll let you roll some dice just to keep you here so you can see how awesome this is." |
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Nov 4 2004, 05:38 AM
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#27
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Senior GM Group: Dumpshocked Posts: 1,406 Joined: 12-April 03 From: Redmond, WA Member No.: 4,442 |
I'll second what Dr. Funk said.
I think a good GM can use IEs, Dragons and Megacorps in a game to good effect. I think a poor GM can make life miserable for his players, even without using IEs, Dragons and Megacorps. When he does use them, it may just be easier to notice that his GM skills need improvement. |
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Nov 4 2004, 05:52 AM
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#28
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Manus Celer Dei Group: Dumpshocked Posts: 16,898 Joined: 30-December 02 From: Boston Member No.: 3,802 |
I disagree that their inclusion is a flat problem. As you yourself allude to, the same sort of thing should be true for some non-immortal NPCs and for some security installations. The problem comes in when the GM does exactly what you say, throws them in when a normal elf could be used. I could throw in Damien Knight when a normal human would be used, possibly with a physical mask. I could throw in the Spirit of Denver. I could throw in OMFGUBAR1337man to whom Essence restrictions do not apply. As OurTeam says, bad GMing can come to a focus around the inclusion of an IE, but it is not created therein. I also tend to fall more to the opinion that Harlequin and the others don't frequently deal directly with Runners, Genesis Shadowrun game notwithstanding. The first Harlequin was a special circumstance of rivalry, IIRC, and HB was not Harlequin's choice. He's certainly closer to the circles than most other power players, but that doesn't mean he or the others are mixing it up with the Shadowcommunity much anywhere but on the Matrix. ~J |
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Nov 4 2004, 06:13 AM
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#29
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Midnight Toker Group: Members Posts: 7,686 Joined: 4-July 04 From: Zombie Drop Bear Santa's Workshop Member No.: 6,456 |
Which is why they're all ruthenium coated.... and please don't say detect missile spell. |
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Nov 4 2004, 06:20 AM
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#30
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Manus Celer Dei Group: Dumpshocked Posts: 16,898 Joined: 30-December 02 From: Boston Member No.: 3,802 |
Detect missile, or a friendly spirit in the area, or the fact that unless the missile is traveling ~1 meter/second the ruthenium will be doing a little of jack and a little of shit, or something like the Adept Combat Sense/Sixth Sense, or informants from your attempt to get the sub in the first place, or underlings with a good set of sensors nearby, or any of a thousand other things…
~J |
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Nov 4 2004, 06:37 AM
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#31
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Midnight Toker Group: Members Posts: 7,686 Joined: 4-July 04 From: Zombie Drop Bear Santa's Workshop Member No.: 6,456 |
:please: I asked nicely.
Oh well, there are always contacts. Powerful people have powerful enemies. If you look hard enough, you can find someone who is both willing and able to kill the annoying Immortal. The thing about being the most powerful person on the block is that there's always someone more pwoerful two streets over. ....and Thor Shots. |
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Nov 4 2004, 07:12 AM
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#32
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Project Terminus: Soul Hunters Group: Members Posts: 1,052 Joined: 6-November 03 From: Casselberry, Florida U.S.A. Member No.: 5,798 |
In the Sega game you are out to avenge your brothers death. to do this you have to follow the leads which leads you to Harlequin. He tells you that Ito has info you get it and sooner or later you find out one of Harlequin's old spirits got free named thon. He needs to destroy artifacts to get his power that keeps him alive. You go poking around in some caves in the indian lands south east of the sinsearach. (go south cross bridge enter lower cave) once in you go south to the wall go east follow to a door going south. next go west till you find the wall go south to a door go through door. now go west across the whole room go through next west door. again go west throughthis room to the other side to get to another west side door go through. in this room is a raku strike team kill them save the feathered serpent tell the truth dragon will help you at end of game enemy. Once you have talked to everyone and hit all the matrix systems of the corps, ito's, gates underground, city hall, and lone star you have all the info you need get your group go see Harlequin he'll tell you to get ready do so if you have not. then see Harlequin again say yes he goes to the sinsearach they chant to help you out you attack the spirit the dragon pops in you go out blast the entry to the cave you were in and you win. at this point Harlequin says you did good aww thanks. and that is why you want the dragon and why Harlequin is not there him self you need the dragon and he has to chant with the elders.
Oh yeah just beat the game for the millionth time last week thus the reason I know all the answers at this time. |
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Nov 4 2004, 12:40 PM
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#33
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Manus Celer Dei Group: Dumpshocked Posts: 16,898 Joined: 30-December 02 From: Boston Member No.: 3,802 |
You asked nicely, but it was the most obvious of the many answers. How do you find out what time it is, and please don't say by looking at a clock. Thor shots have the same problem, and if IEs are common enough to have another more powerful one a few streets over, well, your campaign has problems. Doubly so if your characters have them as a contact. ~J |
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Nov 4 2004, 03:03 PM
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#34
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Midnight Toker Group: Members Posts: 7,686 Joined: 4-July 04 From: Zombie Drop Bear Santa's Workshop Member No.: 6,456 |
I never said that it would be easy finding one, but it would probably be easier than taking on a statless chracter. If Push comes to shove, join the Blood Mag eGestalt and conspire to bring the Horrors over early. I'm sure some Named monstronsity would like to play with an IE.
On a less suicidal level, you could make a list of things that your IE enemy has done that would anger certain Great Dragons. |
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Nov 4 2004, 03:14 PM
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#35
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Manus Celer Dei Group: Dumpshocked Posts: 16,898 Joined: 30-December 02 From: Boston Member No.: 3,802 |
If you can really act at that level, go for it. Why not just nuke the earth into oblivion, though? You’d wipe out their magic at the same time you were wiping them out.
There are ways you can kill IEs. IEs have been killed. They’re just not reasonable for a plausible runner group. ~J |
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Nov 4 2004, 04:11 PM
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#36
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Midnight Toker Group: Members Posts: 7,686 Joined: 4-July 04 From: Zombie Drop Bear Santa's Workshop Member No.: 6,456 |
You don't have to opperate at that level so much as know where to find people who do. An post to Shadowlands describing the IE current activities and whereabouts might be enough to set about his downfall. .
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Nov 4 2004, 04:14 PM
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#37
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Manus Celer Dei Group: Dumpshocked Posts: 16,898 Joined: 30-December 02 From: Boston Member No.: 3,802 |
Also keep in mind that even knowing IEs exist would be unlikely, barring metagaming. Still, considering how quickly an IE can make his or her whereabouts his or her former whereabouts…
~J |
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Nov 4 2004, 08:51 PM
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#38
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Moving Target Group: Members Posts: 326 Joined: 26-February 02 From: Vigo (Spanish Kingdom) Member No.: 1,446 |
Such a post would only make the IE change tactics/places/things... and then go for you. Which is more, since you know of their existance, probably most IEs will have a grudge against you... not nice at all. Being statless means that players can't kill them, which doesn't mean they can't be killed. moving contacts so Ares has a major grudge against Harley would probably get the IE some problems, but, in the end, it would have been Ares and not the PCs who "killed" him. In any case, you can always say "not interested" to Harley and leave the negotiation table. Not probable he'll waste time going after you... |
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Nov 4 2004, 09:29 PM
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#39
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Deus Absconditus Group: Dumpshocked Posts: 2,742 Joined: 1-September 03 From: Downtown Seattle, UCAS Member No.: 5,566 |
I got a good one for you. A relatively easy one, all things considered.
Lure an IE into a mana-warp heavy zone, like Mexico City. Lure elf into warp. Hammer with everything you've got. Elf's spooky magic powers? Probably pretty worthless. Remember - foveae & warps scare even IEs. Edit: correlary. Fight IE in space. Which is much harder. |
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Nov 4 2004, 09:31 PM
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#40
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Chicago Survivor Group: Dumpshocked Posts: 5,079 Joined: 28-January 04 From: Canton, GA Member No.: 6,033 |
Assuming it can be lured in. They didn't survive this long by falling for typical bait. They have millenia on you, they have litteraly seen every trick (probably pioneered a few) in the book.
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Nov 4 2004, 09:43 PM
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#41
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Runner Group: Members Posts: 3,066 Joined: 5-February 03 Member No.: 4,017 |
Not really that useless, they just will be bound by the geasa they used to perform magic during the downcycle. |
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Nov 4 2004, 10:19 PM
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#42
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Moving Target Group: Members Posts: 830 Joined: 3-April 04 From: Columbus, Ohio Member No.: 6,215 |
Not so. I don't remember getting to say "not interested" when I got railroaded into Harlequin's Back. I remember specifically saying "not interested" at the end of Harlequin, when he made me go to that volcano after having screwed me out of more money than I'd ever seen while I was dirt poor. But no, he's the IE, everyone has to do what he says. I don't think FASA meant for this to shake out this way, but that adventure made my whole running group hate Harlequin in particular, elves in general, and magicians would be thrown in there if they weren't the only section of SR that can't be worked around in any way. We went into Harlequin's Back hating the guy, and it was quite clear that the only way we were going to do anything he said was if we were coerced. He's definitely considered the villain in our game, and if we ever run into him again, I think we'll probably launch a suicidal attack against him just because we can't really morally justify letting ourselves be "enslaved" again, as one of our runners put it. I don't think that getting railroaded at the end of Harlequin was the fault of our GM at all, it's the fault of whoever wrote the end of the adventure for creating a situation that apparently couldn't be resolved without us, after creating all the conditions to make us say no to participating in it. The only mistake our GM might have possibly made is that maybe he could have said "ok, Harlequin does it himself," but not having read the adventure myself, I'll give our GM the benefit of the doubt, which unfortunately means I can't give Harlequin the benefit of the doubt. I definitely agree with the crowd that's saying IEs are an inherently railroading plot device, because that's the way they've behaved in the published adventures, not the ones that our GM comes up with. Having been forced through the metaplane quest from hell, my decker has really been traumatized by Harlequin, and if he were a mage, yes, he'd go help the blood magicians try to bring the horrors in early, because the way he sees it, humanity has no reason for existing, if they just exist at the whim of the IEs. Apparently we're just here for their amusement, why SHOULDN'T we all be destroyed? |
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Nov 4 2004, 10:38 PM
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#43
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Runner Group: Members Posts: 3,066 Joined: 5-February 03 Member No.: 4,017 |
Nice rant, but it sounds like it's the GMs fault and not the books. Read one of the run books, they have a few options sketched out, but primarily are based on the assumption that the PCs will stick around and try to get it all done. They typically don't cover you turning tail and running, because that suddenly puts you outside the scope of the run book, and into the massive undefined region that GMs are supposed to make convincing.
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Nov 4 2004, 10:43 PM
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#44
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Chrome to the Core Group: Dumpshocked Posts: 3,152 Joined: 14-October 03 From: ::1 Member No.: 5,715 |
Not to mention that it does mention in places that, hey, it's your game. You can award more money and karma if that's typical of your group.
One run that one of my GMs did was purely combat-oriented (clear an Ant Hive in Chicago. Ugh. I kill all ants to this day). He awarded us a "low" amount of karma at 8 points each. In the run books, the typical award for one section of the book is... 3? We never finished our campaign, but I can guarantee that we had at least 40 karma under our belts in about four games. Most of the time we get it in three. |
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Nov 4 2004, 10:44 PM
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#45
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Immoral Elf Group: Members Posts: 15,247 Joined: 29-March 02 From: Grimy Pete's Bar & Laundromat Member No.: 2,486 |
If you haven't actually read the adventure yourself, how can you make any such claims of GM infallibility and condemn the module out-of-hand?
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Nov 4 2004, 10:50 PM
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#46
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Moving Target Group: Members Posts: 830 Joined: 3-April 04 From: Columbus, Ohio Member No.: 6,215 |
Yeah, I'll have to read Harlequin. I've read Harlequin's Back, and I'm not too upset about it (just kinda). My big gripe is with the first Harlequin, but again, the only thing I can see that our GM could have done differently would be say that Harlequin did it himself, in which case I'd still be pissed at the fact that Harlequin was manipulating us all the way through the adventure and we've basically been told that there's absolutely nothing that we can ever do about it. Actually, scratch that. What picks me is that there's absolutely nothing we can ever HOPE to do about it. It's just sort of "that's it, game over, this is the hand of FASA telling you to just walk away and never come back"
Luckily, from what I'm picking up in Harlequin's back, it should be possible to create another adventure including Harlequin from scratch and kind of right some wrongs and make the whole character seem less oppressing and more human with the emotional hooks included in Harlequin's back that our group never really found much out about, whereas I'd always kind of assumed that would not be possible. We just need to tell the GMs in our group to steer clear of any published material including IEs from now on, which I don't think will be a problem, because we all pretty much feel right now that IEs have no more place in our campaign and shall now be relegated to the status of Dunkelzahn (i.e., our group will always disregard what FASA or FanPro has to say on the matter) |
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Nov 4 2004, 10:57 PM
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#47
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Moving Target Group: Members Posts: 830 Joined: 3-April 04 From: Columbus, Ohio Member No.: 6,215 |
ANd to clarify, I've read HB, it's the first Harlequin where I've supposedly made a claim of "GM infallibility." I make the claim now until I've read Harlequin and seen otherwise. I'm willing to give my friends the benefit of the doubt before the writers of Harlequin. Nothing against them, I've just never met them, and I don't want to go around accusing my GM of shoddy GMing on a public board unless I have proof.
But even if that end scene could have gone differently, and I was supposed to have the option of just walking away, I'm fairly certain that as written Harlequin would still have gotten away with making my group do a lot of stuff it wouldn't normally do and then screwed them out of compensation. Don't get me wrong, the adventure itself compensated us, because we still dream about the karma we got on that run when most guys are dreaming of girls. But that karma isn't coming from Harlequin the elf, it's coming from Harlequin the adventure, which still makes Harlequin the elf a bastard, and we hate him. Having read Harlequin's Back, if our characters knew the things I've read in that book, maybe they wouldn't hate him quite so much, but that wouldn't change the fact that as a force, he's forced the characters to do a lot of things they normally wouldn't do. |
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Nov 4 2004, 11:06 PM
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#48
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Beetle Eater Group: Dumpshocked Posts: 4,797 Joined: 3-June 02 From: Oblivion City Member No.: 2,826 |
There is no difference between an Immortal and Megacorporation. Can they be destroyed? Of course. Can the PCs do it alone? Not well enough that stats would help or change the methods.
Having read Harlequin and many other adventures, I can say they are meant to be a rough outline with a possible outcome; not used word for word. A smart immortal would know you hated him and instead of forcing you to go on the mission, he would make it look as though you could gain revenge by chasing him though the metaplanes.
It was hot in Seattle, so hot and sunny a character that didn't normally wear shades put them on to avoid the glare. Damn weather railroading characters. |
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Nov 4 2004, 11:07 PM
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#49
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Manus Celer Dei Group: Dumpshocked Posts: 16,898 Joined: 30-December 02 From: Boston Member No.: 3,802 |
Perfectly ok for the characters to hate, loathe, and abhor him.
~J |
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Nov 5 2004, 12:07 AM
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#50
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Chrome to the Core Group: Dumpshocked Posts: 3,152 Joined: 14-October 03 From: ::1 Member No.: 5,715 |
CBB: IIRC, there's a spot that says "There is always the chance that the characters will refuse to do this. If that happens, move on and do something else."
That's how it always is with any game. If your GM used Harlequin as a railroading technique to get you to play the game, then it's his fault, not the book's. |
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