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> How do you like 3rd Ed Initiative, Everybody goes...or just me 5 times?
How is initiative best handled
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Deadeye
post Nov 3 2004, 12:49 AM
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So an earlier post got me thinking...from a game balance standpoint I've always seen the point of SR3's ruling on initiative, as everyone gets to go once, even if its last in the round. But I have to say, it seems kinda strange that a wired up/magic'd up character would have to wait for a mundane or non-enhanced individual to do his thing before they got to go again. What I'm wondering is which you prefer, why, and does anyone use SR2 initiative rules in SR3? If you have a whole different thing, what is it?
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mmu1
post Nov 3 2004, 01:06 AM
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I think the SR3 rules are probably a good idea as far as game balance is concerned, but completely lack verisimilitude, and create tons of idiosyncracies.

I'm not sure whether there was a different practical way of changing the SR2 rules, though...
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Kagetenshi
post Nov 3 2004, 02:06 AM
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The mages go and go and go too, thanks to a certain spell.

~J
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Kanada Ten
post Nov 3 2004, 03:16 AM
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QUOTE (Kagetenshi)
The mages go and go and go too, thanks to a certain spell.

Typically they only go and go, since 3D6 averages only 10 or 11... And, honestly, in all my years of playing, no one has ever taken that spell. Seriously weird, I know.
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Wounded Ronin
post Nov 3 2004, 05:03 AM
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I think it's because when most people design a mage they think "slow" and so don't really think in terms of jacking up speed.
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Kremlin KOA
post Nov 3 2004, 05:36 AM
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ah bt +3d6+ the 1d6 everyone gets and +reaction which would be 5-6 is 19 on average and can easily top 21 so go and go and go can be done
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GrinderTheTroll
post Nov 3 2004, 05:57 AM
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I guess I can blame it on my lack of reading comprehension, but we've always done initiative like the way SR3 does it. Guess we missed some finer points, but we've never had complaints.
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Crimson Jack
post Nov 3 2004, 06:30 AM
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Our whole group likes the new SR3 style of initiative over the SR2 version. Three of the five players are magic-oriented slots. As the GM, I like the idea of everyone getting a shot at going first.
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Ol' Scratch
post Nov 3 2004, 06:36 AM
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As far as gameplay is concerned, 3rd Edition's initiative rules are superior to the previous edition. It gives everyone a shot to impact an action scene while still giving a sizable advantage to the insanely augmented characters.

As far as believability goes, the earlier editions handled it better. Logically, it makes a lot more sense that someone who's reflexes are pumped up as high as someone on Wired Reflexes 2 or higher would run circles around those who weren't augmented at all. Those poor mundanes wouldn't know what hit them until they had their intenstines spilling out onto the asphalt three times over.

For me, I'm apparently one of the only two people who voted for the house rules option. Been using and playing around with a few different variants over the years, most of which work out in general but they're all a little bulky and slow down game play compared to the SR3 rules. Most of the time we do, indeed, use the SR3 rules, however. But if I had these three options to choose between, I'd (obviously) go for the home ruled one simply because the SR3 and SR2 both have their glaring weaknesses.
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Fortune
post Nov 3 2004, 06:58 AM
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Something between the two would be nice ... like the speed-freaks going twice for everyone else's action.
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Stumps
post Nov 3 2004, 07:13 AM
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I like Cain's Initiative System (and wish I could link to it on the old forums but they're down :( ).
You claim from the slowest to the fastest as to what you will do, then you resolve from the fastest to the slowest.

I also prefer another system that has no name yet.

You start from the lowest Initiative Value rather than the highest and allow the players to use their actions as interrupts on a regulated level of saying that the interupt can only be used within 10 numeric values of their listed Initiative number.
Other regulations on the interrupts are:
-You may only use half of your Initiative Passes, rounded up, as Interrupts.
-If two players attempt an interrupt at the same time, the player with the highest Initiative Value, to their Initiative Pass that they are using to Interrupt, will go first.
-No player may use an Interrupt to win a Simultaneous Intiative Pass against another player that has the same Initiative Value.
-Damage Modifiers to Initiative has an immediate effect upon the present Intiative Values held by the character receiving the damage.
-If you have more than one Interrupt and you do not use an Interrupt until the time that you have fewer Passes than you do Interrupts, you loose the amount of Interrupts down to the amount of Passes that you do have left.

Meaning:
Markie Mage:
12
2
(one interrupt)

Ricky Rigger:
21
11
1
(two interrupts)

Sam Sammie:
23
13
3
(two interrupts)

Ricky Rigger will go first with a 1 and both Markie Mage and Sam Sammie have the option to interrupt.
Markie with his 2.
Sam with his 3.
If both choose to then Sam would go first because he is faster.

Sam chooses to so Sam will go then Ricky will go.
Sam does not damage Ricky.

Now we have.
Markie Mage:
12
2
(one interrupt)

Ricky Rigger:
21
11
1
(two interrupts)

Sam Sammie:
23
13
3
(one interrupt)

Markie goes next and Ricky is the only one who is within a 10 Intiative Value range so he is the only one who may interrupt, but he chooses not to, because he sees Sam as a threat, so Markie goes.
The result is that Sam suffers a -1 to Initiative from Damage.

Now we have.
Markie Mage:
12
2
(one interrupt)

Ricky Rigger:
21
11
1
(two interrupts)

Sam Sammie:
22
12
3
(one interrupt)

Ricky goes on 11 which means that he will now loose one of his interrupts because he did not use one yet and he has two Interrupts, but he will (after this Pass) only have one Pass left. Since you cannot have more Interrupts than you have Passes, he will lose one of his Interrupts.
Both Sammie and Markie want to Interrupt, but since they both have a 12 they will roll their Quickness against a TN equal to their oppositions Quickness to resolve the Simultaneous Passes.
Markie comes up the winner and damages Sam for a suprising amount and pushes him to a -2 to Initiative from the damage.
Sam damages Ricky badly and Ricky suffers a -1 to Initiative.
Ricky damages Markie badly as well and Markie suffers -1 to Initiative, but since Markie has no more Passes this Round he will just see the -1 to Initiative on his next roll of Initiative like normal.

Now we have.
Markie Mage:
12
2
(no interrupts)

Ricky Rigger:
20
11
1
(one interrupt)

Sam Sammie:
21 (was 23. minus 2 is 21)
12
3
(no interrupts)

Ricky goes next and loses his interrupts all together because he did not use them this Round.
Sam cannot interrupt anymore so Ricky damges Sam again, but no more Initiative modifiers are possible from the damage that Sam's taken.

Now we have.
Markie Mage:
12
2
(no interrupts)

Ricky Rigger:
20
11
1
(no interrupts)

Sam Sammie:
21
12
3
(no interrupts)

Sam goes and damages Ricky very badly and causes him to lose another minus to Intiative making that a -2 to Initiatve and Ricky will see it effect the comming Initiative Roll.

--------------------
I have play tested this out by myself and I like it pretty well. I haven't been able to use it with any players yet though.
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ES_Riddle
post Nov 3 2004, 07:20 AM
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Well, the way the rules are set up in SR3 the wired folk go and go, then slow pokes, then wired folk twice more. Ah…the joins of rolling 10+dice in a surprise test. Plus you should take at least one of the slow pokes out since they won't have combat pool for your first shot.
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Kremlin KOA
post Nov 3 2004, 07:21 AM
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try this one where you go from +the highest init rolled to -the highest init rolled and everyone acts every 20 pts cannot act after -what they rolled. EDIT: brief example

Sammy from hell ( :cyber: ): init 39 :eek:
adept init (Ad): 22
merc init (Mc) : 21
combat decker (CD): 18
Face ( :) ) : 15
Shaman (Sh): 13
Sec guards (SGs) : 12 (GM only rolled once for the lot)
Sec Mage (Mg): 9

we get
39} :cyber:
22} (Ad)
21} (Mc)
19} :cyber:
18} (CD)
15} :)
13} (Sh)
12} (SGs)
9} (Mg)
2} (Ad)
1} (Mc)
-1} :cyber:
-2} (CD)
-5} :)
-7} (Sh)
-8} (SGs)
-18} (Ad)
-19} (Mc)
-21} :cyber:
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Stumps
post Nov 3 2004, 07:25 AM
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Most problems revolving around slow guys getting screwed are solved with the above defined system so far as I've play tested it.

-Kremlin, that just makes it all go by faster with less damage all around. It would be good for those who enjoy role playing more than roll playing that's for sure.
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Kremlin KOA
post Nov 3 2004, 07:44 AM
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Stumps you will find the same amount of damage being dished out in mine as in Sr2 or 3 the difference is it tries to go halfway between SR2 and SR3 for when the slow guys go
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Stumps
post Nov 3 2004, 07:48 AM
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take a look over at what I'm presently messing with as an Intitiative system...
It kinda resolves the whole slow guy problem I think.
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Fortune
post Nov 3 2004, 07:55 AM
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I don't mind Kremlin's example, as it solves my problem by integrating the speed of the hyper-bunny into the rest well. The system itself though is unweildy, and not natural to my aged brain.
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Kremlin KOA
post Nov 3 2004, 08:02 AM
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yeah well I am a math whiz i will admit
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Fortune
post Nov 3 2004, 08:08 AM
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Don't get me wrong, I'm no slouch ... I just don't like the feel of it. It doesn't *roll* right, in frame of reference ... my comfort zone ... much like Open tests. I don't know how to explain it better, I mean, the math is simple, and it's somewhat elegant in that it does address my particular concern, but ... :D
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Kremlin KOA
post Nov 3 2004, 08:26 AM
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no probs. I will admit the negative corss over hurts me too
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DrJest
post Nov 3 2004, 12:11 PM
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I have to admit that we just ignored the merit of... what was it, Adrenaline SUrge? I forget, anyway, the one that let you re-roll 6's on a single initiative dice, and used that for any non-augmented character. The wired boys will still go first mostly, but sometimes the unwired will surprise you.
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DarkShade
post Nov 3 2004, 02:28 PM
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have to say the 2nd ed initiative was more `realistic`
I have a problem describing actions sometimes when the wired 3 street sam is fighting 3 mundane but well armed guards.

in sr2 this street sam will wipe the floor with the guards.. before their first action.

in sr3 the street sam is likely dead. `waiting' for guard nr 3 to nail him before using his second action to kill the remaining guard

am still undecided which approach is best, the new system does mean initiative no longer rules all & street sams are more varied, but it makes a point for `quantity over quality`.. if you have 2 guards and want to handle the wired 3 guy it is better to get a third guard instead of upgrading the 2 guards to wired2..

oh btw, about the poll.. mages that slow? +3d6 initiative is a standard of every single mage I have ever seen, and made permanent or sustained too.. which btw is not munchkinising, any combat mage with a half working sense of self preservation should get this spell asap..

DS
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Moon-Hawk
post Nov 3 2004, 04:05 PM
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Here is a system that I use, that another dumpshocker posted. I take no credit for this, but I've lost my note where I recorded this and the persons name, so I'm working from memory. Whoever I got this from, speak up and get credit:
Standard SR3 except there are always 5 passes.
Those who act once act in pass 3
Those who act twice act in passes 2 & 4
Those who act three times act in passes 1, 3, & 5
Those who act four times act in passes 1, 2, 4, & 5
Those who act five times act in passes 1, 2, 3, 4, & 5
If you need more actions/passes, add phase 0 and 6. If someone looses an action due to injury, just update their initiative and remove their last action, from whichever pass it occurs, don't try to re-figure which passes they act in. Move-by-wire is a bit tricky. I have to give them extra actions in extra passes, but don't update thier initiative score in the extra ones; but that's hardly ever an issue anyway, handle MBW however you want.

In general, this system is a compromise between SR3 and SR2. It tries to space actions more or less evenly throughout the turn. For small initiative differences (up to 20 points or so) the final order of action looks very similar to SR3, but as you get to larger differences of the uber speed demon vs. the slugs, the speed demon can get a couple hits in before the slugs, then all the slugs go, then the speed demon has a couple more actions.
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GoldenAri
post Nov 3 2004, 04:17 PM
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Very similar to the Champions initiative phase system, exept that there were 12 phases and which ones you went on were fixed (based on the Speed attribute).
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Fortune
post Nov 3 2004, 04:18 PM
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I like that ... it bears further testing, but it looks pretty simple and seems like it should run smoothly and seamlessly at the game table.

Speak up and take credit if you are the creator.
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