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> I wanna be a number, mummy, how to get a SIN
Trashman
post Nov 3 2004, 10:28 PM
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Well aware of the possibility that this might have been asked and answered about 37 zillion times I still dare...

In my group we are nearing the point where a SIN - and I mean an honest-to-the-gods- real all-American applepie one - appears a possible option for the chummers.
I understand that the average Joe gets his/her SIN at birth. The prime runner material always consists of 'probationary citizens'. Dunkelzahn had this special amendment to get one.
So far the official games stuff that I can remember off-hand. I might have missed some ... (but probably am too lazy to leaf through a solid meter and some of published game books)

Is there a way of legally obtaining a SIN? Meaning: could someone from the Redmond Barrens walk into a city hall/LoneStar precinct/whatever and apply for a SIN? Would such a person actually get one, assuming he/she has not committed any crimes on record, i.e. has a Criminal SIN, and was just 'unfortunate' to be born on the wrong side of the street?

Any suggestions welcome.
Cheers
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GaiasWrath8
post Nov 3 2004, 10:45 PM
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Shadow Mountain (uncle Dunky) Said in his will that he was going to give away a large amount of them on a certain data to the first bla number of people that arrived at the Draco Foundation front door. This is in his will some place.
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GrinderTheTroll
post Nov 3 2004, 10:52 PM
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QUOTE (Trashman)
Is there a way of legally obtaining a SIN? Meaning: could someone from the Redmond Barrens walk into a city hall/LoneStar precinct/whatever and apply for a SIN? Would such a person actually get one, assuming he/she has not committed any crimes on record, i.e. has a Criminal SIN, and was just 'unfortunate' to be born on the wrong side of the street?

I don't recall any hard rules for a legal-SIN, but there is some basic information about getting a fake-SIN for SR'r purposes in SR3. I'd imagine a real-SIN would require some through background checking, presenting some form of ID birth-cert, etc. to use a reference, and setting yourself up for quite the probing. Probably equivilant to getting a green card or somesuch. More than likey they'd expect you to have a job and be earning an honest wage.

Not sure why a SR'r would want a real-SIN, are they getting bored killing and stealing? :P
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DocMortand
post Nov 3 2004, 11:05 PM
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Yeah, there is a part of Dunkie's Will that has a specific date/time/place in late 2058, in Seattle. My runners got the opportunity to do this - and had to work through a riot as several blocks around the DF main office was jammed with people and the fighting got bloody.
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Fortune
post Nov 3 2004, 11:14 PM
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Join a Megacorp ... get a SIN! :)
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Kanada Ten
post Nov 3 2004, 11:45 PM
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Obtaining a SIN (ie, becoming a full citizen) is done through Naturalization and Immigration Services, just like today. One must apply for citizenship and have skills needed by the nation. One may also seek asylum.

It should be noted that the Haeffner administration attempted to register many SINless, but the project largely failed.

QUOTE
Join a Megacorp ... get a SIN

Or commit a crime and get caught, buy Pueblo stock, and so on.
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Ol' Scratch
post Nov 4 2004, 12:18 AM
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...
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Kanada Ten
post Nov 4 2004, 12:38 AM
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Did I miss something... ?
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FlakJacket
post Nov 4 2004, 01:31 AM
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QUOTE (Kanada Ten)
It should be noted that the Haeffner administration attempted to register many SINless, but the project largely failed.

Since I haven't really been following Shadowrun all that closely lately, where did it say that it was a failure? Thanks.
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Kanada Ten
post Nov 4 2004, 01:45 AM
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QUOTE
Nath in the The UCAS presidency thread:

...To make the debate a bit more palpable, I wrote some piece, basing each stance upon information from SoNA and SSG (including the Libertarians' funding problem)...

Haeffner Administration - After seven years into office, they got a bilan. The major achievement of the Haeffner Administration is the SIN issue : in seven years, 350,000 SINless were regularized with full citizenships. You can consider this as a lot in comparison to past administrations, or insignificant in comparison to the million of SINless in the UCAS. To conduct that program, the Administration postponed a needed update of the UCAS federal databases. It is estimated as much as 5% of the new SIN ends up on the black market. In mid 2062, a scandal revealed the lack of security from federal contractors, a blackmailer getting confidential data from several of them...

I guess failure is more of my interpretation...
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Ol' Scratch
post Nov 4 2004, 01:55 AM
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QUOTE (Kanada Ten)
Did I miss something... ?

No, I just totally missed your very last comment earlier and repeated you almost verbatim (about being arrested, Pueblo, etc.). Can't delete messages though. :)
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Trashman
post Nov 4 2004, 06:35 AM
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Thanks so far, everybody!

My feeling is we got to one of the weak points in the SR background. Or one that needs loads of work from the gamemaster...

If you're a pobationary citizen, that is of UCAS, immigration office doesen't sound like the place to go. Or perhaps it is if we extend the meaning of 'immigration' to include the non-geographical oroigin of the SINless. As they were born (or most of them) on UCAS territory.
That bit about the Haeffner admin sounds a good way round a lot of beuracratic redtape which at least I have no inclination to play out in the game.

Why they would want SINs at all, those runners? Less of a hassle when I have to get them over to Scotland and other places. They would still be 'false' SINs in a way since they don't give up running. They just evolve from low-life to double-life. ;)
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Edward
post Nov 4 2004, 08:31 AM
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Certain organisations can create SINs that blure the line between real and fake. The 2060 equivalents of FBI CIA NSA AFT or other organisations on that level can create a real sin containing whatever data they want. Corporations can do the same granting a “real” corporate sin. These SINs are considered real (and readers detect them as such) but are occasionally filled with false data for use by operative agents (spies), people in a witness relocation program or subjects of an extraction. Sometimes a Johnson will provide IDs of this quality to runners but the ID will be deleted after the run (to limit the chance of it being traced to the Johnson’s organisation.

Edward
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Kremlin KOA
post Nov 4 2004, 11:04 AM
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Trashman now you know how hard life is for the SINless, until Dunkelzahn there was NO WAY to easily get a SIN other than a criminal SIN, so most of those born SINless died SINless (hell ion earlier editions criminal SINs didn't count as SINs so you could easily disappear into a parts bank if you were SINless and arrested.
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Stumps
post Nov 4 2004, 02:32 PM
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That whole bit actually never added up in my head.
More SIN citizens, the more money you get.
The more money you get, the more power you have.

The more SINless you have, the more potentially untrackable dangerous people you have.
The more untrackable danerous people you have, the larger your terrorist groups get.
The larger your terrorist groups get, the higher the chance of a war.

I don't see a win here.
I've never understood why SINless were left as such and no political campaigns were bent on setting up a system that regularly SINs people.
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Trashman
post Nov 4 2004, 08:49 PM
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Interesting point, Stumps.

We probably would have to account for a radical deterioration on governments' side of concern for their citizens (yeah, even more radical than today), the gains a government and the corps might get out of a workforce only a tad above slaves (never explored as a possibility in SR to my knowledge) and for a balance that says it's cheaper to have a mass of basically illegal persons left to their own devices and only serve a different mass (smaller? bigger?) the whole plethora of social services and more.

Assuming this might have come up at some point of discussion amongst the developpers in the past 15 years they obviously shied away from delving any further into the subject. This might have to do with playability of the system or background. There might be a certain shortcoming of the Sixth World in that it's basically unmanageable if you look at it closely enough.
Now, gamers being what they are, they will only stumble across such shortcomings by chance. Enter your gamemaster with furrowing brows and steam coming out of his ears trying to make sense of a system which cannot function, not even as badly as our real present-day ones... ;)
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Nikoli
post Nov 4 2004, 09:04 PM
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also, the SINless provide an instant scapegoat for those in power of those with SINs. More SINless means more frightened taxpayers, who don't question privacy violations if it means the SINless can't attack them as easily. Political dissidents can easily have their SIN revoked by the governing body thus removing any legitimate voice and conceivably access to the tax-paying population. Being SINless doesn't make you a criminal, far from it, and Lone Star knows that, but they also know that the SINless can't press charges without a cititzen sponsor, so they aren't in any hurry either. This dichotomy is at the very heart of the major social issues of the SR world, the proverbial haves and have-nots. Without citizenship, you have no voice, no control, no say, only a will to live.
Many among the SINless feel that the powers that be have betrayed them, or their forefathers, and they aren't far from the truth. They still get taxed but can never collect refunds, never get to vote, probably can't even call a politician to complain, that's taxation without representation. The colonies went to war over it, that's how deeply seated this desire for basic human rights is in a Post-Modern world.
They sow all the burden of civilazation and reap none of the fruits.
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DocMortand
post Nov 4 2004, 09:09 PM
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Now there's an interesting campaign idea - Redmond (outside Touristville) uprises and goes independent because the sinless are sick of being trampled on.

How would that work? I know UCAS military would be called in - but could they be held off? If so, how?
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Nikoli
post Nov 4 2004, 09:12 PM
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Actually, the Metroplex guard would be among the "first responders"
Only after the initial barricades, etc. were in place would the UCAS military be called in. Remember, while Seattle is important, it is also mostly Autonomous from the rest of the UCAS and relies heavily on it's own resources for defense and such.
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FlakJacket
post Nov 4 2004, 09:15 PM
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Who needs the army? First it'd go though Lone Star and then the Feds as a criminal matter. Only if they had heavy weaponry or were too big/organised for law enforcement would they bring in the Metroplex Guard.
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DocMortand
post Nov 4 2004, 09:24 PM
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*boggle* So in other words, if somehow all the gangs got together with all the Z-zone sprawls, they'd have to go through Lone Star first (which would back off pretty darn quick!) then Metroplex Guard (which in Redmond isn't really all that strong - most of it is pretty lawless in the first place) then UCAS army from Ft. Lewis? They'd have a pretty good amount of time to organize then.

Actually, look at King Chrome with his pretty much autonomous sector in Redmond after the suborbital hit. As far as I know, he still controls the sector. Why couldn't that sort of thing work on a larger scale? A lot of politicians think Redmond is better off dead anyways - filled with all the filth and underbelly of society. :D
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Nikoli
post Nov 4 2004, 09:26 PM
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At least that's what they keep saying.

Chances are a few runner teams would be hired to infiltrate and destabalize the organization.
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GoldenAri
post Nov 4 2004, 09:36 PM
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I agree with Nikoli here. Lone Star leaves Redmond pretty well alone, but they will come for something like that. From the description given in New Seattle it would seem that they would come ready for war.

On the SIN topic. I've always thought that SINs were universal in format. That there was some global organization that assigned number blocks numbers (or whatever) to every autonomous organizations (governments, megacorps) who could then use the numbers as they want. Much like IP and MAC addresses now.
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Nikoli
post Nov 4 2004, 09:40 PM
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Close, it's more like how the IEEE sets conventions. Governments and Corps follow the conventions so that their databases don't crash when they run someone elses number. (kinda like how your Citibank card works in a Bank of America atm)
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FlakJacket
post Nov 4 2004, 11:57 PM
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They leave the Barrens alone because there's no advantage to them cleaning the place up and it'd cost a metric assload of cash to do. However if some grimy little toerag appears on the trid' putting up barriers, waving firearms about and saying we're seceding from the UCAS well that's a different matter entirely. Now they're actively defying the cops and government and making them look bad- a bunch of scruffy gangers can push them about. Which is a precedent they can't allow to stand. The governments either going to die or rip their faces off- hint, it's pretty much certain to be the second option.
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