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 Active Dodging, I just made up a new physad power |
 Nov 7 2004, 07:29 PM
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#26
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Beetle Eater  Group: Dumpshocked Posts: 4,797 Joined: 3-June 02 From: Oblivion City Member No.: 2,826  |
Doesn't it imply that some traditional witches are exactly that? And then there is the Alchemist paradigm. Both would make a good basis for such a class, though I haven't made it to the Game Mechanics section of Old World Magic yet and it brings up the question of what they can actually do in terms of enchanting. |
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Nov 7 2004, 07:32 PM
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#27
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Moving Target Group: Members Posts: 903 Joined: 11-December 02 From: The other end of your computer screen Member No.: 3,724 |
I'm really going to stay as neutral as I can here. *touches thread with finger* "OW! HOT!" Anyways...
Dodging bullets. I will remind you that we are talking about dodging bullets as well here. An arrow, ok..I can see that. Bullets? With 100% meat body due to super in-tune mind and body? That's streching it just a bit. I know we can say, "But the Sammies can do it!!" But I like how the Adept Sourcebook (presently a small group project in the works) keeps fresh in their minds (and I have to strongly agree with it) Adpets are not just mystical street samurai without the cyber. They are an entire field unto themselves. Cyber offers the possibility of moving so friggen fast that one could dodge a bullet on the rare occasion. But really, GMing should be strongly presenting some intersting side-effects from that much cyberware. With Adepts...you don't have any negative side-effects that are serious health risks. |
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Nov 7 2004, 07:37 PM
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#28
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Immortal Elf Group: Validating Posts: 7,999 Joined: 26-February 02 Member No.: 1,890 |
SOTA's format for seperating flavor text and game rules leaves something to be desired, but from what I've managed to read so far, they're implying that witches use charms (hardly a European-only concept -- let's hope they don't continue to typecast rules in the future) and Earthdawn-style magic (ie, spell matrixes), but they're otherwise just another flavor of shaman.
Dunno about that, either. But a specialist in Enchanting is still significantly different from an aspected Enchanter. |
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Nov 7 2004, 09:27 PM
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#29
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Runner Group: Members Posts: 3,314 Joined: 26-February 02 From: Lisbon, Cidade do Pecado Member No.: 185 |
I beg to disagree but that's my perrogative as it is yours. By my definition a specialist is specialized in a particular area and not well-rounded.
I would appreciate you posting a character which has those abilities at character generation which isn't crippled by gaesa and I might agree with you. Not that I'm doubting you can do it, just whether or not it'll come out a munchkinized specialist or the kind of well-rounded addition I've seen everybody else produce when presented with the new rules.
Posting a character will be helpful in illustrating your point. I'll reserve further comments until I see it.
And a character/fixer brought in to negotiate and handle legwork isn't a one-trick pony? I'm not questionning his effectiveness (although you should slap phermones and any relevant edges on the Johnson if he's a pro) just players interest in playing that character and hence the times he will be appearing in games. There's a long way between something being possible and being commonplace.
Apologies, my MITS is on loan so I went from an apparently faulty memory as should be obvious I meant aspected magicians.
Nice, intelligent argument and like so many of your posts so obviously open to other people's interpretations and opinions. Now when you finally get round to actually reading what was written, you'll probably be surprised to notice I was talking about Attunement. It went without saying that Attunement is not Enchanting. Attunement is imparting part of your Inner Magic into an item or animal (in mechanical terms through a karma expenditure). Something mages, whose powers are directed towards manipulating "external" mana, cannot (at present) do - just like they can't tap it their Inner Magic to function like a Living Focus. The process by which this is acomplished is also called bonding but that's where the parallels end - the item or animal is not inherently magical (like most products of Enchanting) and in many cases it won't be. The comment regarding "physical control" has to do with the way Attunement (especifically in Item Attunement) is described as acomplishing what it does - the item feels as if it were an extension of the adept's body, and in the case of an animal its senses become an extension of the adept's own.
The current Limited Astral Projection is specifically geared (including integral limitations) towards magical adepts (and only them). IMHO Whether or not a type of Astral Projection Metamagic for aspected magicians might be introduced (or not) is not the point since the limitations (if any) should be significantly different. |
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Nov 7 2004, 10:03 PM
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#30
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Runner Group: Members Posts: 3,314 Joined: 26-February 02 From: Lisbon, Cidade do Pecado Member No.: 185 |
If you're referring to the Dude and Woodchuck's Adept crew on Underworld93.com (I'm not sure since there's been at least two more adept projects I know of), you might be surprised to know Dude and Damion, the "surviving" members of that team, are my co-authors on the adept chapter of SOTA64 and a fair chunk of the material introduced in the book was developed and tested on the Adept SB project. |
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Nov 7 2004, 10:20 PM
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#31
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Immortal Elf Group: Validating Posts: 7,999 Joined: 26-February 02 Member No.: 1,890 |
Fine, especially since I don't consider most geasa crippling. If you instead intended to say "without using any geas whatsoever because I don't like them despite them being a fundamental part of the game," well, that's your perogative. But I'm not going to ignore a basic and perfectly acceptable rule just to make you happy. Regardless, and for the third time, here you go... Barebones Concept: Human Face. Build Points (125 BP): Magic 25, Race 0, Attributes 60, Skills 28, Resources 15, Edges -3. Edges & Flaws: Bad Karma (representing depression and lack of a zest for life), College Education, Dark Secret (funded through college by the Mob), Good Looking & Knows It, Good Reputation 2. Attributes: Bod 4, Qui 8, Str 2, Cha 6, Int 6, Wil 6; Rea 8, Init 1D6(2D6); Ess 4.7, Bio Index 1.4; Combat Pool 10, Karma Pool 1. Average Initiative 15. Active Skills: Athletics 4, Etiquette 6(10), Negotiations 6(10), Pistols 6, Stealth 6. Knowledge Skills: Acting 4 (Improvisation 6), Current Events 3 (International 5), English 4 (Proper English 6, Reading/Writing 2), Japanese 4 (Reading/Writing 2), Psychology 4 (Criminal Psychology 6), Security Procedures 3 (Bypassing Security 5), Rumor Mill 6, Underworld Politics 4 (Mafia 6). Adept Powers: Improved Ability: Etiquette 4 (Talisman: Lucky Charm), Improved Ability (Condition: Establish Eye Contact, Magic Loss Offset), Kinesics 3 (Talisman: Lucky Charm), Linguistics (No Geas). Implants: Boosted Reflexes 1 (0.5e, 15,000¥), Cybereyes (Image Link, Eye Light Systems, Low-Light Vision, Flare Compensation) (0.3e, 12,800¥), Enhanced Articulation (0.6b, 40,000¥), Muscle Toner 2 (0.8b, 50,000¥), Smartlink-2 (0.4e, 3,200¥). Contacts: 50,000¥ worth plus two Level 1s. Equipment: Vashon Island Actioneer Line (Ruthenium Polymers with 8 Scanners) (51,650¥), Form-Fitting Full Body Armor (Thermal Dampening 4) (8,000¥), Savalette Guardian (Upgraded Smartlink-2, Personalized Grip, 2 Spare Clips, Concealed Quick Draw Holster) (1,635¥), Pocket Secretary (2,000¥). Remaining Resources: 17,365¥ + 3D6*100¥ in Starting Nuyen. Specialties: Social Encounters, Stealth, Ranged Combat. Weaknesses: Melee Combat, Damage Resistance (yet quite better than average). Note that one or two numbers may be slightly off; I did it from memory rather than looking everything up. Not gonna waste my time going through and triple-checking everything for something that doesn't mean squat.
First, no, I do not consider them a one-trick pony. I consider them a specialist. He'd be a one-trick pony if, in fact, he could only do one thing. Second, the adept face can use Tailored Pheromones just as easily as the Johnson can. And you know what? He can actually get his hands on Tailored Pheromones thanks to Kinesics, not to mention hooking up with Delta Clinics and anything else that's normally really difficult to get your hands on. And note that against ordinary Johnsons, the Adept Face will completely obliterate him on the bargaining table. That's why I included a gifted Johnson earlier... because even against a powerful Johnson, that Johnson doesn't stand much of a chance unless he, too, is an adept. And voila, there's the crux of the my issue with these rules.
I'm well aware of what you were talking about. But, as often seems to be the case around here, you guys like to use logic that only applies to one particular thing. You simply can't do that. If you're going to argue one bit of logic for one particular aspect of the game, that logic has to apply across the board or it is the faulty logic.
Funny, sounds like a form of enchanting and bonding to me.
Nope, but it has a magical tie to its master/creator. Much like foci do; they're not magical, they just house magic. If the magic is destroyed, the vessel continues to function just fine; the magic itself does nothing to the focus, only the one its bonded to. Same essential difference.
I still see little reason as to why that would be a purely adept ability. I'm sure magicians feel the same way about their foci. Why shouldn't a hermetic druid who has a huge amount of his essence tied into his staff (a combo Weapon/Power Focus) be able to do the same thing?
And my point is that it should have been introduced first. In fact, there is no reason whatsoever that it should have been limited to adept magicians only in SOTA:2064. It's like all the metamagic techniques therein were restricted to adepts simply because it was a chapter on adepts. That's like saying that adepts should be banned from learning Psychometry because that was introduced in a section of SOTA:2063 revolving around traditional magicians rather than adepts... nevermind that nothing about it is purely magician-based. This post has been edited by Doctor Funkenstein: Nov 7 2004, 10:38 PM |
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Nov 7 2004, 10:24 PM
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#32
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Moving Target Group: Members Posts: 903 Joined: 11-December 02 From: The other end of your computer screen Member No.: 3,724 |
Yeah, I caught some word about something like that over there at underworld. Something about getting a little somewhere, but I haven't paid close attention like I should be. I love those adepts. I just hope they get their dues someday. Glad to hear that they're getting their stuff out there! |
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Nov 8 2004, 02:13 AM
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#33
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Great Dragon Group: Members Posts: 6,640 Joined: 6-June 04 Member No.: 6,383 |
Well, I agree that the *idea* of dodging bullets in the sense of dodging them when they're already in the air is absurd, whether you're a sammie or not. But that's an overall issue with the game system that allows x dice for dodge tests in the first place. Consider that even perfectly normal non-magical and non-cyber guys have combat pool and can theoretically dodge a bullet. And indeed, that was kind of my initial point. My initial point is that adding to dodge pool tests is very powerful and that I disagree with letting people do that for only .5 power points per dice. As far as the health risks from cyberware are concerned....I've never ever ever encountered a single GM who actually applies that. When I GM, even though I'd like to apply that, it's just too many details. When I have to create 5 hours worth of gaming material and keep track of a plethora of rules I just don't have the mental capacity to also track health effects for each and every piece of cyberware the party has. Moreover, the people I play with tend to take different characters each time, so it's not like I'd just have to keep track of a particular group of characters. There are different characters each time and the timeframe between missions is very ambiguous precisely because it's essentially different PCs each session. |
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Nov 8 2004, 02:32 AM
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#34
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Great Dragon Group: Members Posts: 6,640 Joined: 6-June 04 Member No.: 6,383 |
The only book that I own that you have mentioned is MITS, and I've only been playing since 2nd edition. Just to clarify, I wasn't commenting on what canon should or shouldn't be. Yes, I realize that MITS was overflowing with lots of references to artistry and stuff like that, but I never thought that someone would actually want to go ahead and *make* an artistic adept. I figured that Stephen Kenson just stuck it in there because he's verbose, and he's an author, and he has a personal interest in magic so he just crammed it as full of personally interesting details as possible. I honestly didn't think that anyone else would actually be interested in all that artistic stuff.
Geeze louise, my point was NOT to comment on SOTA 64, which I do not own and wasn't planning on using. My comment on the smartlink power just came because of a few mentions on this board, and I thought, "Gee, that sounds mighty munchkinous". Really, the whole entire point of the conversation that I started to get into was: I think that .5 points per dodge pool dice is too cheap, considering how in SR3 they seemed determined to not let you get more pool for less than 1 pp per dice, and furthermore how a lot of the powers in MITS like Nerve Strike are much less cost effective than something like .5 pp for more dodge dice. Furthermore, I wanted to point out that using Athletics to dodge is tagged as an optional rule and so it is incorrect to assume that it would be present in any game that follows all the official rules. So what was the point of the power that I wrote initially? To let people get more dodge dice at a rate that was worse than .5 per dice but slightly less expensive than 1 per dice in the context of a game that does not use the optional rules for athletics helping you dodge.
I mentioned the stacking. The fact it applies to all melee skills is a good call, though. I still think it would be funny to have a troll physad with a dikoted magical claymore with Counterstrike and Improved Ability teamed up with a mage who could cast Control Thoughts and force all the mooks to attack the troll in melee combat. |
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Nov 8 2004, 02:46 AM
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#35
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Moving Target Group: Members Posts: 153 Joined: 7-November 04 Member No.: 6,811 |
I don't intrepret dodge actions as literally dodging bullets, except possibly for Adepts in cinematic moments ("Woah."). Instead of using the combat pool to do all the random nebulous stuff that somehow makes you shoot better, you use it to not get shot. You happen to weave just the right way to throw their sights off. In a running firefight you move behind cover just as the trigger is pulled. You catch a brief glimpse of steel in the Corp Goon's hand, think "Ohmygod HE'S GOT A GUN!" and duck faster than the gunner can react, your brain barely missing its chance to become part of the wall paper. It may not make sense for anyone to dodge a well aimed bullet, but even Joe Sixpack can duck. When you add that combat is a chaotic, rapidly moving dervish of activity rather than two people standing still and taking pot shots at each other, being able to make a concerted effort to not get shot makes sense. |
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Nov 8 2004, 02:50 AM
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#36
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Great Dragon Group: Members Posts: 6,640 Joined: 6-June 04 Member No.: 6,383 |
If you interpret it like that it makes more sense.
My personal interpretation that helped me "live with" dodge tests, so to speak, was that combat pool represents the amount of attention you're giving to various tasks. So, if you use all your pool to take a good shot but then don't have enough left to dodge something, that means you were leaning out of cover and aiming and not paying as much attention to the guy who shot you. If you use all your pool to dodge and then fire a few pool-less shots, then you were paying attention to hiding behind cover and all you did to shoot was take a few quick shots in the general direction of the enemy without really looking. |
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Nov 8 2004, 03:38 AM
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#37
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Moving Target Group: Members Posts: 556 Joined: 28-May 04 From: Moorhead, MN, USA Member No.: 6,367 |
Is this a good place to ask if a scope, a laser sight, and Attunement would provide a TN of 2 all the way out to the range of the laser sight and 3 thereafter? :eek:
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Nov 8 2004, 05:55 AM
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#38
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Moving Target Group: Members Posts: 903 Joined: 11-December 02 From: The other end of your computer screen Member No.: 3,724 |
See...wonded...I kind of "fixed" this problem with one of my intitiative systems. I'll PM it over to you since I've already posted it in another thread and don't want to practice bad form and post it twice. Basically, dodging simply doesn't work as a given anymore. But as far as this little bit.
hmm...I remember something in the book somewhere about that, but it's not in here now when I'm looking. Maybe it was in SR2. I thought I remembered an area that explained that the target was attempting to make it more difficult for the shooter by adding modifiers to their shot. [Dodging as a given, in my opinion, is a bit broke. Not because of what you can do to dodge, but because of this. Slow guy has 2 passes, fast guy has 3 passes. Fast guy uses first pass and shoots at slow guy who chooses to dodge. How is he dodging? He, according to numbers, can't even react yet. He hasn't gone yet, he isn't using any actions yet. Nothing. Dodging is handed out like a semi-free action that would otherwise be at least a simple action (moving around or leaping to make their aim harder). If you have 3 seconds of time in which to do things, and you spend part of that time dodging, weaving, and ducking, and you can only move normally at 2 simple actions per 1.5 seconds (or one simple action in 0.75 seconds), then how are you squeezing in another action like you are moving at 1.2 seconds per pass? (or 0.6 second per simple action) This kind of always bugged me, but I just always let it go... Like I said, my latest concept for initiative solves that problem] |
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Nov 8 2004, 06:27 AM
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#39
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Manus Celer Dei Group: Dumpshocked Posts: 16,898 Joined: 30-December 02 From: Boston Member No.: 3,802 |
The thing is, you're dodging from the beginning. You start dodging the second you realize what's going on. Not being able to dodge == being surprised. Which does mean that realistically dodge pool should be allocated at the start of a combat turn, and definitely before an attack test is rolled, but it's up to the GM whether they want to make it a more lethal game. ~J |
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Nov 8 2004, 07:01 AM
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#40
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Immortal Elf Group: Validating Posts: 7,999 Joined: 26-February 02 Member No.: 1,890 |
Nah, it's one of the things covered by the abstract nature of the rules.
You have to look at a Combat Turn as a single entity. Sure, it's split up into different phases to maintain order and help keep track of what's going on, but descriptively it's a mad dash of action. Every point of Combat Pool you spend on dodging is one die of Combat Pool you don't get to spend on anything else. So if you blow most of your pool to dodge, it's assumed you were bobbing and weaving like a mad man during the course of that turn... and it was only against those attacks you rolled the Dodge Test on that it actually had any appreciable effect. That doesn't mean you weren't dodging the whole time; it just means you successfully dodged those particular attacks to some degree. If you spent most of your pool to augment your Combat Skills, it meant you were being all macho in combat. If the majority of it was spent on Damage Resistance Tests, you were just being a dumbass. :D etc. Best damn thing about Shadowrun's system is you get to use your imagination. Not everything is spelled out for you; you're expected to be creative with interpretations. |
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Nov 8 2004, 07:07 AM
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#41
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Manus Celer Dei Group: Dumpshocked Posts: 16,898 Joined: 30-December 02 From: Boston Member No.: 3,802 |
Right, but my point is that realistically one wouldn't get to choose to bob, duck, and weave like mad after they know someone's shooting at them or not. At least, not until the second turn, if there is one :)
That being said, just because it's realistic doesn't mean I feel the need to use it, or even advocate that others use it. ~J |
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Nov 8 2004, 07:14 AM
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#42
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Moving Target Group: Members Posts: 903 Joined: 11-December 02 From: The other end of your computer screen Member No.: 3,724 |
You miss the point I think.
It's not a "how is reacting when his number isn't up yet." Look at the stop-watch. It's a simple matter of time. We have all pretty much agreed in several threads that it makes no sense to assume that a slow character is simply not moving when it's not his turn. Instead, they are moving, but they are moving slower than the faster guy so you don't see their results until their pass comes up and they only have 2 passes which means: Combat is 3 seconds per round. 2 passes equals 0.75 seconds per simple action. 0.00 to 0.75: Slow Pulls weapon out 0.76 to 1.50: Slow Pulls the trigger at his target 1.51 to 2.25: Slow Re-aims his weapon 2.26 to 3.00: Slow Pulls the trigger again Now add in joe sammy with three passes moving at 0.5 seconds per simple action. 0.00 to 0.50: Sammy pulls weapon out 0.00 to 0.75: Slow Pulls weapon out 0.56 to 1.00: Sammy pulls trigger at his target 0.76 to 1.50: Slow Pulls the trigger at his target 1.01 to 1.50: Sammy re-aims at his target 1.51 to 2.25: Slow Re-aims his weapon 1.56 to 2.00: Sammy fires again 2.01 to 2.50: Sammy fires again 2.26 to 3.00: Slow Pulls the trigger again 2.50 to 3.00: Sammy fires again Now look what happens when we say that Slow dodges sammy when sammy's fires at. 0.00 to 0.50: Sammy pulls weapon out 0.00 to 0.75: Slow Pulls weapon out 0.56 to 1.00: Sammy pulls trigger at his target 0.76 to 1.00: Slow Dodges Sammy's shot 1.01 to 1.50: Slow Pulls the trigger at his target 1.01 to 1.50: Sammy re-aims at his target 1.51 to 2.25: Slow Re-aims his weapon 1.56 to 2.00: Sammy fires again 2.01 to 2.50: Sammy fires again 2.26 to 3.00: Slow Pulls the trigger again 2.50 to 3.00: Sammy firse again Between .076 and 1.50 Slow acts twice making him suddenly accellerate to acting at 2.5 seconds for a simple action that needed to be pulled off by 1.00, and then decellerated (but still going faster than he normally does) to a rate on par with the Sammy of 0.5 seconds per simple action to accomplish his shot by 1.50 seconds. ---------------------------- To me. That's broke. |
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Nov 8 2004, 07:20 AM
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#43
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Immortal Elf Group: Validating Posts: 7,999 Joined: 26-February 02 Member No.: 1,890 |
Why do you assume dodging involves massive body movements? It could be slight turn of the head, side stepping, or even accidently bending over to pick up a penny just at the right time. "Dodging" is a game term, it doesn't mean you're actually bobbing and weaving all over the place; it simply could mean that (assuming you're moving at the time) if it fits the scenario. It doesn't even have to be an active act, it could be passive or even rely on pure happenstance and luck. Whatever works for the character and the scene.
Speed and reflexes have little to do with it. About the only time you're genuinely caught with your pants down is if you lose a Surprise Test, and that's a very likely possibility if you're a "slow" (low Reaction) character. Just another reason why Reaction rules and Initiative sucks. :) |
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Nov 8 2004, 07:25 AM
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#44
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Moving Target Group: Members Posts: 903 Joined: 11-December 02 From: The other end of your computer screen Member No.: 3,724 |
um...if you are getting all that dice for turning your head, then I'm done playing this game. That would be completely retarted. And you have no time to pick up a penny if you are soking your time up attacking.
Sidestepping and continual movement isn't dodging. It's actually a seperate rule and falls unfer modifiers for hitting moving targets, as well as shooting your weapon while moving. Dodging is dodging. That's why it's listed seperate. And yes. Initiative is broke. That's why I spend time making so many variations of it to see if I can find better ways to pull it off. |
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Nov 8 2004, 07:26 AM
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#45
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Great Dragon Group: Members Posts: 5,889 Joined: 3-August 03 From: A CPI rank 1 country Member No.: 5,222 |
Dodging |= action. It's more akin to movement, with a good bit of being in the right place at the right time.
Your example above would be just as "broken" if you had 5 Joe Slows shoot at Joe Sammy at 0.76-1.50sec and Sammy dodged each one with 2 dice. He suddenly accelerates 7 "actions" in a second and then slows back down to 2 per second. |
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Nov 8 2004, 07:28 AM
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#46
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Moving Target Group: Members Posts: 903 Joined: 11-December 02 From: The other end of your computer screen Member No.: 3,724 |
Yes, you are right.
That's my point. I wasn't saying that the slow guy is the problem or that only fast guys can dodge. I was saying that dodge should be a forfeit of an action to accomplish. You can't create new energy. You can only redistribute it. If you make dodges a forfeit, then there's only so much that someone can dodge, and it's pretty limited to how fast they can move (initiative passes) |
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Nov 8 2004, 07:31 AM
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#47
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Great Dragon Group: Members Posts: 5,889 Joined: 3-August 03 From: A CPI rank 1 country Member No.: 5,222 |
Do you also think running (not Sprinting) should take an action?
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Nov 8 2004, 07:32 AM
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#48
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Immortal Elf Group: Validating Posts: 7,999 Joined: 26-February 02 Member No.: 1,890 |
It's a forfeit of your overall combat prowess in a Combat Turn. Every die you spend on dodging is one you didn't spend on shooting, sucking up a blow, or any of the other things you can use Combat Pool on.
Spend all 7 of your Combat Pool dice on dodging? Well good for you. You can still squeeze that trigger all you like, but you're going to suck because of all that bobbing, weaving, side-stepping, and penny picking-upping you were doing. |
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Nov 8 2004, 08:03 AM
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#49
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Moving Target Group: Members Posts: 210 Joined: 8-October 04 Member No.: 6,736 |
I just had an interesting thought about getting dodge dice for .5 each.
A dodge die is worth 1/2 as much as IA: (ranged attack of choice) in ranged combat (since you get 2 shots) and 1/2 as much as IA: (melee attack of choice) in melee combat (since it only applies on defense). A dodge die should therefore cost .25 if only applicable in ranged and .25 if only applicable in melee. These dodge dice are applicable in both so .5 is the perfect price for them. |
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Nov 8 2004, 08:13 AM
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#50
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Moving Target Group: Members Posts: 903 Joined: 11-December 02 From: The other end of your computer screen Member No.: 3,724 |
nevermind...I'm not going to try and convert people here.
I simply aim for a shadowrun that works proper with timelines. Things that don't iron out right in a timeline, I don't like |
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