 Worlds Without End, Just Read the Novel |
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 Nov 11 2004, 02:19 AM
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#26
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Target  Group: Members Posts: 13 Joined: 23-September 04 Member No.: 6,695  |
I think the problem stems from the fact that the author generally has to try and cram in way more stuff than a non-game fiction writer has to to maintain the appearance of the game world. You have to have details that players will recognise, NPC's sometimes, and above all the book has to attempt to have the feel of the game. This is where I think they all fall down, SR's feel really doesn't suit a novel that well. A movie perhaps, but not a novel. |
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Nov 11 2004, 02:32 AM
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#27
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Manus Celer Dei Group: Dumpshocked Posts: 17,013 Joined: 30-December 02 From: Boston Member No.: 3,802 |
Bah. I could easily see a good SR novel being done.
~J |
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| Guest_Crimsondude 2.0_* |
Nov 11 2004, 02:36 AM
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#28
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Guests |
Yeah, but too often they seem to omit or alter details that players would otherwise recognize.
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Nov 11 2004, 02:46 AM
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#29
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Moving Target Group: Members Posts: 109 Joined: 28-October 03 From: End of Earth 2mi. Home 4mi Member No.: 5,764 |
I've always thought of the novels in SR as if the author were actually any GM, writing up their run or campaign. As far as writing quality goes, they do a hell of alot better then I would. As far as canon material goes, how many of us actually run a game that is completely by the book? I sure as hell don't. Never will either, partly because I'm to poor tog et caught up on all the books or story lines. You don't like what's in the book ignore it. If your PC's try to cite a novel you're ignoring tell them to stuff it. Done it a couple of times, because it made things easier for me.
my 2 cents |
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Nov 11 2004, 02:53 AM
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#30
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Immortal Elf Group: Validating Posts: 7,999 Joined: 26-February 02 Member No.: 1,890 |
It wouldn't be so bad if they weren't labeled as "canon" (and sometimes I think even the guys who run the franchise don't quite get what that term means and instead use it as interchangably with "official" as some people around here do). But since they are labeled that way, any conflict they produce conflicts directly with the actual rules for the game... and both are equally valid.
Besides, the few I've read pretty much sucked on every level, including the story itself. |
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Nov 11 2004, 03:22 AM
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#31
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Manus Celer Dei Group: Dumpshocked Posts: 17,013 Joined: 30-December 02 From: Boston Member No.: 3,802 |
I like the theory of the novels being canon. The practice leaves much to be desired.
~J |
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| Guest_Crimsondude 2.0_* |
Nov 11 2004, 04:37 AM
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#32
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Guests |
Oh, come on... Burning Bright was a damn enjoyable read. So was Dead Air.
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Nov 11 2004, 05:23 AM
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#33
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Neophyte Runner Group: Members Posts: 2,078 Joined: 26-February 02 Member No.: 67 |
"Burning Bright" is one of the two exceptions for me (as far as Shadowrun novels I liked). I think the other was "Night's Pawn". "Dead Air" might be good, I never read that one.
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Nov 11 2004, 05:30 AM
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#34
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Immortal Elf Group: Members Posts: 11,410 Joined: 1-October 03 From: Pittsburgh Member No.: 5,670 |
i liked the short story collection, Into the Shadows. Findley's books got me into SR--good stuff.
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| Guest_Crimsondude 2.0_* |
Nov 11 2004, 05:32 AM
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#35
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Guests |
I think House of the Sun left a great deal to be desired. Never read Night's Pawn. Maybe if I find my copy of Dead Air we can share?
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Nov 11 2004, 12:08 PM
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#36
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Neophyte Runner Group: Members Posts: 2,001 Joined: 26-February 02 From: Michigan Member No.: 1,514 |
Sigh
Man I pray ever night to every pantheon of gods available that some book other than Burning Bright makes me happy. That said-I try and find something positive in every book, evenif it's not what to do when I manage to actually write on of my own. |
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Nov 11 2004, 02:51 PM
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#37
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Immoral Elf Group: Members Posts: 15,247 Joined: 29-March 02 From: Grimy Pete's Bar & Laundromat Member No.: 2,486 |
Night's Pawn was quite good. :)
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Nov 11 2004, 05:36 PM
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#38
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Freelance Elf Group: Dumpshocked Posts: 7,324 Joined: 30-September 04 From: Texas Member No.: 6,714 |
The original trilogy was fun (if over the top), too. Dead Air still stays at the top of my list, though.
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Nov 12 2004, 04:03 AM
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#39
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Moving Target Group: Members Posts: 223 Joined: 24-February 03 From: The Containment Zone Member No.: 4,151 |
Most of the Shadowrun novels are pretty mediocre -- not that this makes them that different from other game tie-in fiction, however. On the other hand, there are a few novels that stand out as being unbelievably good on the tie-in fiction scale (which is to say, they are pretty good novels in their own right). Burning Bright and Night's Pawn, Tom Dowd's two novels, and Nigel Findley's 2XS are some of the best tie-in fiction I've ever read. The best part of these novels, I think, is that the protagonists are all....very human, not over-the-top badass stereotypes, and metaplot-heavy NPCs remain firmly in the background.
I haven't read any of the novels since I read....Black Madonna, I think, where things went from over-the-top to beating my suspension of disbelief with 16-pound sledge (I think that was around when I stopped buying Shadowrun books in general too). It sounds like I didn't miss a whole lot.... |
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Nov 12 2004, 02:18 PM
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#40
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Neophyte Runner Group: Members Posts: 2,078 Joined: 26-February 02 Member No.: 67 |
Absolutely agree. Another thing I liked about those novels was that they didn't close off in-game storylines. Burning Bright, while involving a big event in SR, didn't close off the storyline for players, but instead opened it up. Novels like the Dragonheart Trilogy totally piss me off, because of they way they close down storylines in canon as opposed to opening them up. |
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Nov 12 2004, 03:05 PM
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#41
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Moving Target Group: Members Posts: 223 Joined: 24-February 03 From: The Containment Zone Member No.: 4,151 |
To some extent I agree, although sometimes it is good to get closure on big metaplot events; I still don't feel that Chicago was very satisfactorily ended (although I suppose the CZ is still very much in a netherworld between "broken" and "fixed"); even though FanPro seems to want to move away from the Bugs, a lot still seems to remain up in the air with regard to Chicago. I suppose I'm especially bothered by this because it was one of my favorite storylines -- but I agree with you that a better way to wrap it up is something similar to Brainscan, where the players have the ability to participate (and for some reason, I am pretty sure you'll agree ;)). The fact that it also neatly eliminates the problem of authors introducing over-the-top Mary Sues (*coughcough*Ryan Mercury*coughcough*) is a happy coincidence. While we're on the subject of Burning Bright, I'll just restate that if a Shadowrun movie ever gets made, this would be my choice for something to convert (although it might be better as two movies, one for the pre-Infestation section and one for the post-Infestation section). I suppose now that Tom Dowd is not working on Shadowrun anymore, the chances of finding out what Kyle Teller is up to are slim to none, eh? Out of curiosity, did you read 2XS and if so, what do you think made it a lesser book than Burning Bright and Night's Pawn? |
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Nov 12 2004, 03:31 PM
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#42
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Neophyte Runner Group: Members Posts: 2,078 Joined: 26-February 02 Member No.: 67 |
Yeah, I agree that the best idea for wrapping up storylines are game adventures that players participate in, not novels where it's resolved in canon by NPCs. I also think the SOTA books are a good way of pushing storylines to closure now without closing them off entirely to players.
It's especially annoying when the novels close storylines that didn't need closing. Like the mystery of Dunkelzahn's assassination. That was a great plot line that hadn't even been around long before it was "solved" by uber-cheese NPCs in a grand storyline which players weren't invited to. And no, I haven't read 2XS, but from what I know of it, I think I might like it. |
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Nov 12 2004, 05:21 PM
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#43
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Immortal Elf Group: Members Posts: 11,410 Joined: 1-October 03 From: Pittsburgh Member No.: 5,670 |
you probably would; it does exactly what you're talking about--explore and further existing plotlines, without ending them. House of the Sun is good as well, especially when you compare it to stuff like the DH trilogy. yes, HotS deals with 'big stuff', but it's largely self-contained; it doesn't open up a whole lot, in terms of run ideas, but it doesn't close anything off, either.
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Nov 12 2004, 10:19 PM
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#44
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Moving Target Group: Members Posts: 830 Joined: 3-April 04 From: Columbus, Ohio Member No.: 6,215 |
House of the Sun was helped by the fact that its events happened so far away from everything.
I liked 2XS and House of the Sun, because although they dealt with big things, they dealt with them in a small enough way that I came away with the feeling that similar things could happen to my character. Of course, I read them before forming the strong opinions about metaplot that I have now, so maybe I should re-read them and see if they turn my stomach now, but I remember at the time I really really liked them. |
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Nov 17 2004, 06:34 AM
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#45
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Target Group: Members Posts: 8 Joined: 26-February 02 Member No.: 743 |
Wow, such unmitigated glowing admiration... <laugh>
Well, I have many comments to this thread... the first of which is that yes Per Aspera Press will be coming out with Scars next year... likely in March, and Little Treasures later in the year or early 2006. We actually meant to have Scars out by now, but we've been so busy with our latest hardcover thriller, Singularity that we have delayed our other books a bit. It's been worth it though because Singularity has been getting some awesome reviews and blurbs by big name authors and such and is bound to be one of those books that builds and builds. I think a lot of SF fans will like it. Anyhow, what started out as a small venture to put out my novel Liferock has turned into a much bigger thing and has taken up a great deal of time and energy. Regarding the various types of SR novels (at least among those I've had a hand in writing): Dead Air was purposefully meant to be a more typical SR novel in that it dealt with a small, as yet undeveloped are of the SR universe and told a story that largely affects no one outside the story itself. It's a self-contained unit. OTOH, the three novels that make up the Dragon Heart Saga were crafted as part of a unified effort to shake up both the SR universe and the game line. At the time I was brought in to write them, the SR game line was flailing. The plot and characters were partly my own creation, partly created in collaboration with FASA, most notably Mike Mulvihill. These books were meant to be different, and to stand out. They were designed to resolve a number of larger scale plot elements that were brought up by the election of Dunkelzahn to the presidency of the UCAS and his subsequent assassination... and especially to tie up the thread that Enemy was about to cross-over. The Dragon Heart Saga in conjunction with the sourcebooks that lead up to the election and the assassination of Dunkelzahn were scripted, with the main intent of renewing interest in Shadowrun. And it worked! A year later Shadowrun had outgrown BattleTech as FASAs best-selling game. Anyhow, I feel like I'm rambling, but I was hoping context might give you all a better perspective from which to judge my various novels. As for The Terminus Experiment... there's a story there as well. I consider that 3/4 Jonathan's book, even though my name is on it. Suffice it to say that it was nearly a lot worse.. but the full story has to remain a mystery for now; perhaps if you catch me in person after a couple beers, I might tell it. :> |
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Nov 17 2004, 06:50 AM
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#46
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Immoral Elf Group: Members Posts: 15,247 Joined: 29-March 02 From: Grimy Pete's Bar & Laundromat Member No.: 2,486 |
You're never going to please everyone every time.
While I may not have appreciated Terminus Experiment as much as I could have, I really enjoyed the Dragonheart Trilogy and Worlds Without End. But then again, I like the metaplot. :) |
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Nov 17 2004, 07:05 AM
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#47
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Target Group: Members Posts: 8 Joined: 26-February 02 Member No.: 743 |
just to clarify... i am in no way put off or bothered by negative comments or criticism about my novels.... i do not expect to be able to please everyone and i appreciate feedback of all kinds...
i've always felt privileged to have been able to contribute so much to Shadowrun universe.... and the last thing i want is my presence to heisenberg the discussion.... |
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Nov 17 2004, 10:04 AM
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#48
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Immoral Elf Group: Members Posts: 15,247 Joined: 29-March 02 From: Grimy Pete's Bar & Laundromat Member No.: 2,486 |
I didn't mean to infer that you were, or even might have been. I merely felt that sometimes people (even me! :D) tend to mention the negative more often than the positive, so I figured I'd remedy that situation at least a little bit. :) |
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Nov 17 2004, 12:49 PM
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#49
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Target Group: Members Posts: 55 Joined: 7-May 04 Member No.: 6,308 |
While it's been said before I think it bears repeating: Most novels of any sort are crap. Just like most TV. I've found the Shadowrun novels to be better than most. I gotta second how ridiculous the Terminus Experiment is for Shadowrun. Not bad for a splatterpunk horror flick, but not really Shadowrun.
Before I'd even heard of Shadowrun outside Nintendo Power (the issue covering the SNES game), I found Lone Wolf used in a Value Village, and couldn't put it down. Best Shadowrun novel I've ever read, by my favorite Shadowrun author. Interesting trivia, right before his heart attack, GURPS:Illuminati was published by none other than Nigel Findley. And I always felt that House of the Sun opened up (but not a lot) the Immortal Elf/Atlantis connection. |
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Nov 17 2004, 02:45 PM
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#50
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Great Dragon Group: Members Posts: 6,748 Joined: 5-July 02 Member No.: 2,935 |
Cool beans. Thanks for the info. |
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