Shapeshifters and cultured bioware Options

[Cochise]

Take your SRComp and read the section on regeneration and its failure.
Currenttly my english version of SRComp is out of reach and I guess you wouldn't take my word that the english and the german version are identical in that point ;)

[Ol' Scratch]

Cochise is correct. While I don't have my SRComp handy, the rules for Shapeshifter PCs mention that they will die if they don't receive medical attention after failing their Regeneration Test as per the rules for standard characters. That includes overflow.

[Kagetenshi]

Interesting.

Thanks. Now to find where that copy of SRComp got buried…

Edit: though in this matter, I probably would have taken your word on the German one :)

~J

[Cymophane]

Cochise :
"The first question would be: What do you consider the "regeneration power" to be?
Is it
a) a purely magical property of beings with that power or
b) a genetically encoded trait in the DNA of those beings ?"

Assumed that b) is right (which i do think btw.) AND also applies to the ability to shapechange i have to argue with Mike saying it would be more difficult/expensive to grow cultured bioware for shapeshifters. Let´s assume the subject receives it´s implants in human form, i.e. the physiognomy is that of a normal metahuman. M&M states that cultured b-ware is being fat grown from the cells of the person who will receive it. So the implant cloned has the same inherent genetic abilities as the recipient without additional difficulties/expenses -> it will change shape together with the rest of the recipient´s body and gains the benefits of regeneration. setting aside the problems of implantation itself, it should be a normal surgery.

I think Cochise is right about shapeshifters and damage overflow, at least i don´t know a rule saying otherwise.

[Cochise]

[Ol' Scratch]

The problem is that it doesn't matter if it matches. In effect, the shapeshifter completely rebuilds its body from scratch every time it gets wounded. It doesn't go "hmm, let me consult with this organ here to see if it's been genetically modified by science... oh, yes, what do you know, it has... let me adjust for that..."

[lorthazar]

Only if that organ was damaged and even then if there is some of it left that organ will more than likely come back in it's modified form.

[Kagetenshi]

That's just it. There's no reason for it to come back in modified form.

~J

[Cymophane]

While i can agree on point 2., i don´t on 1.

ok, i have to admit that i suppose a very close genetical relationship between normal metahumans and shapeshifters (thus not requiring further R&D on the scientist´s behalf). given that, i don´t see any relevant difference between normal and shifter cultured implants. one might even argue that the shapeshifter´s stem cells are more hardy and resistant and make the whole process easier (and a lot faster due to the regeneration power) thereby reducing costs.

[Cochise]

[lorthazar]

I agree, if the organ is completely destroyed it will come back as a 'normal' organ. However if there are sizable pieces remaining the regnerated tissue will be grown from that, thus rebuilding the organ.

[Herald of Verjig...]

First, the surgery wouldn't actually be that hard, use a silver scalpel and the openings will take just as long to close as a regular scalpel with a human. The anesthetics would need to be a higher dose, and an alleviate allergy spell would be helpful (otherwise, the flesh will still rash around the incisions).

As for whether the bioware would regenerate, GM call. Distributed bioware would be much harder to "lose completely" as a result of damage, but it would also make sense if the regenerated areas wouldn't have the bioware modification.

As a consequence, I suggest allowing shifters to get genetech (at double cost or so), but no surgical replacements that have different DNA than the rest of the creature.

[Ol' Scratch]

Look at it this way, lorthazar. Say you manage to tattoo a shapeshifter with some kind of funky tattoo focus gizmo and for whatever reason, it sticks. Now that shapeshifter gets his flesh torn off.

Do you think the tattoo would return, too? Same difference.

[Cymophane]

[The problem is that it doesn't matter if it matches. In effect, the shapeshifter completely rebuilds its body from scratch every time it gets wounded. It doesn't go "hmm, let me consult with this organ here to see if it's been genetically modified by science... oh, yes, what do you know, it has... let me adjust for that..." ]

What about the genetic modifications introduced in SOTA ´63? They follow bioware rules and can even be applied "in utero" thus becoming an integral part of the subject´s body on the level of the basic genetic programm available in each of her cells...do you think these won´t "regrow" either?

[Ol' Scratch]

I'd consider allowing it on a case-by-case basis. But Genetech isn't Bioware. It just affects the user's Bio Index.

Note that even if I was on crack and allowed Bioware or Genetech to be applied to shapeshifters, I'd apply the Healing Test modifier from Bio Index to the Regeneration Test. In other words, every +1 modifier the Bio Index causes would increase the chances of a failed Regeneration Test.

[lorthazar]

Not remotely same differenence.

Tattooing is the addition of a foreign substance to your skin that is otherwise inert.

Bioware is a living mass of flesh that, if cultured, you body sees as part of it. It has the same DNA (slightly modified but then again skins cells are slightly different than liver cells), the right protein complexes, and it is LIVING. Over time it has to replace old cells that died off, so it not out of line that the organ would grow back the way it was. Now that would be contignet on some piece of it being left. Blow a 3 inch wide hole throught the throat of a charging werewolf and he can kiss his suprathyroid good bye.

[Cochise]

[Kagetenshi]

As soon as an implant has taken stress, it is actively harmful. It will be recognized as such, and healed. This involves returning it to its original state.

~J

[lorthazar]

Two ways to look at that man.

A: The body completely regrows the organ (still harmful, as the body has now lost abilities doh.)

B: The organ repairs the stress untill it become useful again

[Ol' Scratch]

It's obvious that you want this to work despite all the logic contrary to the phenomenon. Go for it in your setting. Just know that it's not backed up by much more than your conviction.

[Kagetenshi]

But it is explicitly stated that a piece of bioware may never be reduced below 1 Stress once it has taken Stress. The only way to heal it is to purge it one way or another.

~J

[Cymophane]

what about applying the regeneration roll (1D6) to a deadly wounded organ? that would be as close to RAW as possible. if it "saves" it recovers, if not it´s dead...

[lorthazar]

Actually it is backed by a firm grasp of how I view regeneration to work. Also backed by GURPS Biotech a much more well researched and thought out version of bioware and genetic engineering.

Besides like I keep saying it is the GM of the game that has final say. You can argue all you want but in the end (s)he has the say that counts.


(BTW it's not all good for Shapeshifters headshots tend to give them Amnesia in my game lol)

[Kagetenshi]

[Cymophane]

if you reason that way Kagetenshi you seem to have a problem with how regeneration itself works...