[X] My Assistant

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edit: bah. stupid multi-page threads.

[Kagetenshi]

Says who? Regenerating the body in general seems to me to be easier than regenerating a specific custom organ in a specific custom fashion rather than just wiping it.

~J

[Cymophane]

Let´s say our shapeshifter is hit right into his chest and some part of his heart is badly damaged but the heart still keeps working...i don´t think the whole heart will die, suppurate out of his body and then regrow, i rather think the shapeshifters body begins to rebuild the damaged body part.

[lorthazar]

So you are saying that it would be easier for the body to grow a whole new liver becuase one lobe is damaged, then it would be for the undmaged lobe to simply grow the other lobe over gain with it's Toxing Extractor DNA.

BTW I use this example becuase you can remove either lobe of a liver from a human being and the liver will regrow over time.

[Kagetenshi]

But if the heart continued to malfunction, the parts that malfunctioned would be replaced by standard tissue.

The bioware supplying the extra abilities was malfunctioning and got replaced with standard tissue.

~J

[Cymophane]

yes, but that´s where the regeneration roll kicks in:

as long as there´s still a working part of the organ left (say, the organ rolled all but 1) it will regrow in it´s actual state (as a bio-enhanced one), if the organ is totally destroyed, it regrows as an original (unaugmented) one.

[lorthazar]

Do you just refuse to see what we are saying? If parts were being regrown it would be becuase of the mitosis of nearby cells. In this case the cells with the altered DNA.

[Cymophane]

"The bioware supplying the extra abilities was malfunctioning and got replaced with standard tissue."

Why? M&M says that bioware is able to regrow when it´s damaged but not totally destroyed. Regeneration does so, only faster.

[Kagetenshi]

But if you read the Stress Rules, bioware can never be reduced below 1 Stress once it gets any, so you have an injury that only heals with the destruction of the modified organ.

If the 'ware did persist for some reason, I'd probably treat it as a permanent Light or Moderate wound as the body continually tries and fails to repair the damage.

~J

[lorthazar]

Who says Bioware stress exists in my game? My players have too much to do and keep track of already.

[Cymophane]

Well, that´s right, but the rules aren´t perfect...i would rule that it regenerates even that point. I think that would fit the whole regeneration idea.

[Zeel De Mort]

Okay, next:

What about vampires? What if someone is Infected with HMHVV and turns into a vampire, but previous to that had had, oh, let's say a kidney replaced? What if it was a clonal replacement, would it always regenerate? What about Type O?

What about replacement limbs clonal/Type O - do they fall off when someone starts regenerating for the first time, or do they regrow just like everything else?

If cultured implants are forced out, why aren't cultured replacement organs?

If replacement limbs/organs are not regenerated, but a new "real" one grows in their place, how did the body know to do that? How does it know not to regenerate bioware, or genetech?

[Kagetenshi]

Then go for it, but don't try to claim it's canon.

~J

[Mercer]

The real question is what would happen if you cut a shapeshifter exactly in half. Would they regrow into two shapeshifters that would then be the most in sequence tap dance duo in the History of the World, or would they have three left feet?

The fundamental problem I have is that it is using technological means to alter what is a magical creature. I think it is an intriguing idea, perhaps worthy of designing an adventure around. (Corp kidnaps shifters, one escapes, her body wracked with malfunctioning organs making her rabid or crazy, that the group gets involved with and has to help, possibly hitting the original facility to get research data or get the other shifters out, etc etc.)

But Bioware is a relaively new technology (ten years or so), and shifters have never been studied extensively, so I don't think the two would go together like chocolate and peanut butter. For it to filter down to the street level, or be anything other than a laboratory exercise, would be beyond the scope of the current timeline. I'd save it for a Ghosts of Mars shadowrun game set in 2164 or some such.

(In the interest of full disclosure, I should also point out that I house ruled Regeneration. There's a couple of variations by critter, but Shapechangers heal Stun every three seconds, and they heal Physical Wounds at the rate normal people heal stun.)

[lorthazar]

Did I try to claim it's Canon? Do I care if it's Canon? Do my player care if it's Canon? The answer to all the above a resounding NO! I kicked all the rules lawyers out my group. We're here to have fun. Sometimes to do that the rules go out the window.

[Kagetenshi]

More accurately, don't try to claim that it is consistent logically or thematically with canon.

~J

[lorthazar]

You remind me of a player I used to have who always tried to make sure he had the most powerful character. He did this by being the most ruthless rules lawyer I had ever seen. Any interesting idea the other players had and spent time researching reason why it would work, he would shoot down based on the it's not in the books argument. Every time I allowed it to go through despite his objection he would kill that character either directly or by setting them up.

I will say it fits thematically and logically, becuase unlike you I understand that when man is challenged he doesn't play by the rules. Everything in the Shadowrun universe needs to be taken with huge amount of salt. Somethings I keep the way they are becuase it helps with the game balance. Other things i look at and say "Well, guess someone was asleep at the wheel." And still other things I have added in to make life interesting.

[Kagetenshi]

The original question was, in essence, "can you do this". Since we can do anything the GM allows, including having the Moon as a dikoted weapon focus, the only reasonable assumption is that the question addresses whether or not it is reasonable to do this in Canon.

Bioware can be implanted by placing it on top of your head and letting it crawl into the proper place in your game. That isn't how it works in canon, and things rationalized by the top-of-head method won't apply in canon.

And I have no idea what relevance "when man is challenged he doesn't play by the rules" has to the discussion. Thanks for the implication that I'm as stupid as someone who seems to have forgotten that the other players are going to be watching his back, though. On the other hand, if that's all you have you're being blatantly unfair, because if the rules and flavour text neither state nor imply that something should happen, the player has, get this, no canon support. All they have is GM fiat, and it is not only reasonable but good that someone point this out.

~J

[Bigity]

I don't see how being against shapeshifters getting bioware is in any way a play to have the most powerful character? Not that it really matters.

[Ol' Scratch]

[Mercer]

[Critias]

Why bother asking what other people think, if you're going to call them oppressive munchkin rules lawyers if they give an answer you don't like?

[lorthazar]

Yes, I agree it is good to point out that within the Rules Canon it is questionable.

As for the Thematically and Logically Canon, it fits quite well. Several times in Paranormal Animals of North America and Shadowtech were there references to geneticist playing around with awakened animal DNA. Extend this even a tiniest fraction and you could see how some experimental ShapeShifter bioware could exist.

[Cymophane]

"...a bioware-totting shapeshifter that regenerates and automatically repairs all Stress to that bioware.."

Don´t get me wrong, i know that it is unbalancing or at least very powerful. But i started the thread to see if anybody has good and reasonable arguments besides game-balance that say it doesn´t work.

[Kagetenshi]

Again. Shapeshifter genetech, yes, but that is materially and significantly different from shifter 'ware.

~J