 Shapeshifters and cultured bioware |
  |
 Nov 8 2004, 08:49 PM
Post
#76
|
|||
|
Moving Target  Group: Members Posts: 485 Joined: 25-October 04 Member No.: 6,789  |
Actually my PC is a Pretender Street Samurai with amnesia. He doesn't remember who he is, what he has done, or why several different group keep trying to subdue him. Sure he's a powerful character, but he's got som many RP hazards that it makes life hard. No, the player I was referring to played a Hitmage with enough cyber to make life interesting and many quickened spells. He killed the one Sasquatch shaman we had, the Albino Dwarf Druid, a slew of Street Samurai, a Combat Decker, a former Navy SEALs physical adept, and the force 3 free ally spirit all in the matter of a year. Finally the group decided to fight fire with fire and set him up so that Lowfyr came down on his head. |
||
 |
 
|
||
|
Nov 8 2004, 08:52 PM
Post
#77
|
|
|
Immortal Elf Group: Validating Posts: 7,999 Joined: 26-February 02 Member No.: 1,890 |
Some people would argue that taking the Amnesia flaw in itself was a rather munchy thing to do. It lets you get away with a greatly reduced background story and gives you points for extra stuff.
|
|
|
|
|
Nov 8 2004, 08:56 PM
Post
#78
|
|
|
Moving Target Group: Members Posts: 485 Joined: 25-October 04 Member No.: 6,789 |
I made up a thirty page history for my GM for that character. I know what it is, but my character doesn't. I only took the 2 point version with which I bought college and tech school eduction. he knows a lot of stuff but nothing personal
|
|
|
|
|
Nov 8 2004, 09:01 PM
Post
#79
|
|
|
Target Group: Members Posts: 53 Joined: 8-November 04 Member No.: 6,816 |
i donīt see a big difference between gentech and bioware. gentech changes cells, bioware consists of cells having undergone some kind of treatment to perform in another way. so i argue that gentech and bioware are very similar (thatīs why they share the same game mechanics -> bio-index). and note that we speak about cultured bioware here all the time, so a bioware, e.g. a gland that was cloned outside the body using the recipients stemcells is in no way different to, letīs say a bone structure enhancement that the body build itself because it was told doing so by gene therapy.
|
|
|
|
|
Nov 8 2004, 09:02 PM
Post
#80
|
|
|
Immortal Elf Group: Validating Posts: 7,999 Joined: 26-February 02 Member No.: 1,890 |
Genetech changes your DNA. Bioware replaces an organ. Huge difference.
|
|
|
|
|
Nov 8 2004, 09:08 PM
Post
#81
|
|
|
Target Group: Members Posts: 53 Joined: 8-November 04 Member No.: 6,816 |
yes, it replaces the organ, but the organ itself is not just an normal cultured organ, like those 0-type replacements, itīs an organ that has been altered to outperform normal flesh. and, keeping in mind that this organ can heal itself, it needs a genetically altered cells, otherwise the new organ wouldnīt know how to stay alive and how to do itīs job.
|
|
|
|
|
Nov 8 2004, 09:09 PM
Post
#82
|
|||
|
Manus Celer Dei Group: Dumpshocked Posts: 17,008 Joined: 30-December 02 From: Boston Member No.: 3,802 |
But when it goes to repair it, the geneteched shifter's "blueprint" is of the changed result, while the bioteched is of the original. ~J |
||
|
|
|
||
|
Nov 8 2004, 09:15 PM
Post
#83
|
|
|
Target Group: Members Posts: 53 Joined: 8-November 04 Member No.: 6,816 |
no, if it would work that way your fancy new adrenal-pump would get absorbed over time as we all know that even healthy organs are replaced bit by bit all the time. so the adrenal pump must "know" that it doesnīt work like a normal renal gland or it wouldnīt recreate itself as an enhanced version but as a normal one.
|
|
|
|
|
Nov 8 2004, 09:23 PM
Post
#84
|
|
|
Traumatizing players since 1992 Group: Dumpshocked Posts: 3,282 Joined: 26-February 02 From: Las Vegas, NV Member No.: 220 |
It's entirely specluative to think that you can even change the genetic blueprint of a regenerating creature at all. heck, doing so may disable the regeneration, kill it, or have any of a hundred side effects.
|
|
|
|
|
Nov 8 2004, 09:24 PM
Post
#85
|
|||
|
Manus Celer Dei Group: Dumpshocked Posts: 17,008 Joined: 30-December 02 From: Boston Member No.: 3,802 |
Do we even have evidence for what happens with long-term bioware? This may be accurate. ~J |
||
|
|
|
||
|
Nov 8 2004, 09:26 PM
Post
#86
|
|
|
Target Group: Members Posts: 53 Joined: 8-November 04 Member No.: 6,816 |
Some disbelivers said the same when they started doing stuff like that to "regular" metahumans. And notice: even those "regular" metahumans regenerate, just slower-paced and less efficient.
|
|
|
|
|
Nov 8 2004, 09:34 PM
Post
#87
|
|
|
Target Group: Members Posts: 53 Joined: 8-November 04 Member No.: 6,816 |
"Do we even have evidence for what happens with long-term bioware? This may be accurate."
If that was the case bioware would come with a "lifetime" likes nanites do. Sth. like "the suprathyroid gland loses 5% of its efficiency each year because it lacks the ability to replace (heal) old and dying cells", but we know bioware is able to heal itself and therefore this doesnīt apply. |
|
|
|
|
Nov 8 2004, 09:41 PM
Post
#88
|
|
|
Manus Celer Dei Group: Dumpshocked Posts: 17,008 Joined: 30-December 02 From: Boston Member No.: 3,802 |
We know that it doesn't have the ability to heal itself completely, because the first stress point any bioware takes is permanent.
Your cyberarm isn't going to last forever either, but it'll damn well outlast most Shadowrunners. ~J |
|
|
|
|
Nov 8 2004, 09:51 PM
Post
#89
|
|
|
Target Group: Members Posts: 53 Joined: 8-November 04 Member No.: 6,816 |
it doesnīt matter if itīs able to heal itself completely, even if it doesnīt recover that one point of stress it is still kinda immortal because it may heal all stress points that follow (correct me if i am wrong) as long as they donīt kill it outright.
|
|
|
|
|
Nov 8 2004, 09:58 PM
Post
#90
|
|||||
|
Decker on the Threshold Group: Dumpshocked Posts: 2,922 Joined: 14-March 04 Member No.: 6,156 |
I'm not sure this necessarily follows. The problem is, essentially, how far does regeneration go when healing a shapeshifter? More specifically, does the regen: 1) actually cut off old "damaged" limbs/organs and regrow them from scratch? This I think is extremely unlikely, for reasons that should be obvious to all. 2) heal damaged tissue completely and flawlessly, every single time? This I think just as unlikely. We know that in some cases regeneration does fail, so it is certainly capable of not always working right. From this, I extrapolate that even when the shapeshifter *does* regenerate, there are likely some bits that don't heal completely. This wouldn't lead to actual *wounds*, per se, but would give the shapeshifter a nifty scar or two. Which leads me to... 3) heal itself up as best it can, leaving scars and other "monir errors" alone? This I think makes the most sense thematically, as it seems to fit better as a biological system, rather than the all-or-nothing, perfect-or-dead theme of the first two options. It also fits better cinematically for me, as it means my shapeshifters can have belly buttons. :P Now we move on to what is considered a "minor error". I for one am willing to accept one permenant bioware Stress point as a, "minor error," one that the body won't really worry enough about to try and fix. Sure it's not optimal from a player's perspective to have your bioware with that extra Stress point, but from a biological point of view it doesn't really hurt you mechanically, and so in that sense, "If it ain't broke, don't fix it." So my conclusion would be: in the same way as for non-regenerating creatures, the first Stress Point for bioware does not immediately heal.
... "Saeder-Krupp Research Experiment #N-7752-A..." :rotfl: In all seriousness though, implanting cultured bioware in shapeshifters is probably something that won't reasonably be practicable--let alone available to the common shadowrunner--for quite some time. Other than a few cases of implanting bioware in certain Awakened critters, there's just no evidence suggesting that anyone's really tried to modify a shapeshifter with cultured 'ware. If you want to allow it, go right ahead, but at several people have already said, there's really no direct canon evidence backing you and a whole lot of circumstancial evidence indicating it's not possible. |
||||
|
|
|
||||
|
Nov 8 2004, 10:02 PM
Post
#91
|
|
|
Decker on the Threshold Group: Dumpshocked Posts: 2,922 Joined: 14-March 04 Member No.: 6,156 |
As for the immortality issue, saying that something can regenerate does not mean that it's immortal, by any means. Humans can, in a way, regenerate, but we still have a finite lifespan. Starfish have far better regeneration than we do (cut a starfish in half, get two starfish), but their lifespan is only about 5-10 years.
|
|
|
|
|
Nov 8 2004, 10:11 PM
Post
#92
|
|
|
Target Group: Members Posts: 53 Joined: 8-November 04 Member No.: 6,816 |
yes, thatīs right. but the piece of ware lasts as long as the body supporting it (supposed it doesnīt develop cancer for some reason). i wasnīt talking about real immortality, i just wanted to point out itīs not some kind of "one-shot" implant.
|
|
|
|
|
Nov 8 2004, 10:16 PM
Post
#93
|
|||||
|
Immortal Elf Group: Validating Posts: 7,999 Joined: 26-February 02 Member No.: 1,890 |
Actually, yes it is. The only difference is that they used your cells to create the organ rather than making it generic, thus decreasing your bodies chance of rejecting it completely (hence the lower, but not negated, impact on Bio Index).
You're confusing an organ's ability to repair itself with cells and nutrients the body supplies as the magic used in regeneration and shapeshifting (which are both directly related to each other). One's purely biological, one's purely magical. Even if you want to ignore that, which I'm sure you do, you're still ignoring the bit about what's going on when a shapeshifter regenerates. They're not healling really, really, really fast -- they're completely rebuilding their body from scratch just as if they were shapeshifting. Note also that most of the people on this thread who talked about allowing genetech have only said they might consider allowing it, not that they would. I most likely wouldn't allow it at all because magic has very little to do with genetics beyond an ambigious mention of a "mage factor" thought to possibly exist in genes. Once magical bioware and genetech start showing up, I might change my mind. I personally hope it never does, however. I like my magic to be magic. |
||||
|
|
|
||||
|
Nov 8 2004, 10:26 PM
Post
#94
|
|
|
Target Group: Members Posts: 53 Joined: 8-November 04 Member No.: 6,816 |
Well, youīre right. i am assuming that the regeneration isnīt magical. my whole argumentation builds on that one thesis (as you surely have seen, careful reader that you are). and therefore your point may be reasonable but i wonīt discuss magical regeneration here, at least not as long as it isnīt reproduceable by cultured implants.
|
|
|
|
|
Nov 8 2004, 10:30 PM
Post
#95
|
|
|
Immortal Elf Group: Validating Posts: 7,999 Joined: 26-February 02 Member No.: 1,890 |
Why does everyone assume that I don't read what they've said just because I disagree with them? Oy.
But tell you what, if you want to go on believing that it's purely biological ability, point to a single non-magical entity in Shadowrun that has Regeneration (note the capital R). While you're at it, explain to me how completely rebuilding your body after a massive explosion in less than a second or two can be anything but magic. |
|
|
|
|
Nov 8 2004, 11:00 PM
Post
#96
|
|
|
Target Group: Members Posts: 53 Joined: 8-November 04 Member No.: 6,816 |
1.
i assume you havenīt read my post not because you disagree but because you shouldīve known that iīm talking about non-magical "racial" regeneration. 2. when regenerationis directly linked to shapeshifting, why... ...doesnīt it require the shapeshanger to change? ...does it work on entities in shadowrun that have Regeneration (note the capital R), but no ability to shapechange? 3. and, ok, even if itīs magical...what happens to a samurai with an adrenal pump with severe damage who is healed by a mage? a) does the magic render it useless because it wants to reestablish the bodyīs natural state? b) does the magic repair the damage to the bioware? (hint: you might want to read "magical healing and bioware stress" page 131 M&M) |
|
|
|
|
Nov 8 2004, 11:07 PM
Post
#97
|
|
|
Immortal Elf Group: Validating Posts: 7,999 Joined: 26-February 02 Member No.: 1,890 |
1) Your desire for it to be non-magical has little to do with the nature of shapeshifters or, honestly, the discussion at hand, beyond your own personal interpretations.
2) Because in the case of a shapeshifter, their regeneration is in effect a lesser form of their shapeshifting ability. Transforming from a wolf into a human requires the complete construction of a human body; regeneration is a minor offshoot of that capability. 2c) I'm sure there's a few critters that have Regeneration but no form of shapeshifting abilities, but I can't think of any off the top of my head. Great Dragons and Vampires both have shapeshifting capabilities, and I'm not even entirely sure if Great Dragons have Regeneration to begin with. Regardless, every critter that has Regeneration is extremely magical and supernatural in nature. 3) Magical healing has no effect on completely healing bioware stress (which is the term used for the damage bioware suffers). If a samurai gets so badly shot up that his adrenal pump suffers Deadly stress, no amount of Heal or Treat spells will repair that adrenal pump; it will always have a minimum of Light stress. |
|
|
|
|
Nov 8 2004, 11:13 PM
Post
#98
|
|||
|
Running Target Group: Members Posts: 1,326 Joined: 15-April 02 Member No.: 2,600 |
"The science of any sufficiently advanced race will be indistinguishable for magic." IA. Which is (like many of my comments) neither here nor there. I've always treated the megladon as having non-magical regeneration. It doesn't replenish lost tissue immediately, its just so big and such a simple, efficient machine that you can blow and hunk of flesh the size of a volkswagon off of it and as long as it isn't brain, it won't really notice. The Regeneration Power is simply the best mechanic for representing this. This is, however, as non-canon an interpretation as one can imagine, and therefore inadmissable in the argument as non-magic regeneration. Also, it has nothing to do with shapeshifters. It really doesn't apply at all. I return you to your regularly scheduled Two People Arguing About How An Imaginary Thing Works, already in progress. |
||
|
|
|
||
|
Nov 8 2004, 11:16 PM
Post
#99
|
|
|
Target Group: Members Posts: 53 Joined: 8-November 04 Member No.: 6,816 |
1. ok, i might be convinced that regeneration is magical
2. you didnīt read m&m 131 did you? stress can be reduced by magic healing. i suggest a regeneration roll (as i said earlier) for deadly wounded organs. 3. setting aside the shapeshifter, what would happen to a dzoo -noo-qua with bioware instead (THIS IS JUST AN EXAMPLE !!!)? he canīt shapeshift, where does his regeneration come from? |
|
|
|
|
Nov 8 2004, 11:25 PM
Post
#100
|
|||||
|
Traumatizing players since 1992 Group: Dumpshocked Posts: 3,282 Joined: 26-February 02 From: Las Vegas, NV Member No.: 220 |
Magic cannot entirely repair stress, that requires technology, and surgery. Not magic. Yes I read it, that's what it says.
Same reason Dragons can fly despite not being aeronydamic, which is latent subconscious magical expressionism. They subconsciously express magical traits as a nature of their existance.
|
||||
|
|
|
||||
|
|
Lo-Fi Version | Time is now: 10th February 2025 - 11:30 PM |
Topps, Inc has sole ownership of the names, logo, artwork, marks, photographs, sounds, audio, video and/or any proprietary material used in connection with the game Shadowrun. Topps, Inc has granted permission to the Dumpshock Forums to use such names, logos, artwork, marks and/or any proprietary materials for promotional and informational purposes on its website but does not endorse, and is not affiliated with the Dumpshock Forums in any official capacity whatsoever.