 Illegal spells and police records. |
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 Nov 8 2004, 10:06 PM
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#26
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Moving Target  Group: Members Posts: 527 Joined: 30-January 04 Member No.: 6,043  |
I dunno about that one. I don't think "spiritual" evidence (testimony) is admissable in court. Besides, watchers are specifically not too bright, and don't last very long.
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Nov 8 2004, 10:08 PM
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#27
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Manus Celer Dei Group: Dumpshocked Posts: 17,013 Joined: 30-December 02 From: Boston Member No.: 3,802 |
And if they could the point would be moot because the signature would be recordable.
~J |
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Nov 9 2004, 12:41 AM
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#28
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Beetle Eater Group: Dumpshocked Posts: 4,797 Joined: 3-June 02 From: Oblivion City Member No.: 2,826 |
Same with Phantasm! One could even record an Astral Signature using a simrig and Trid Phantasm! |
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Nov 9 2004, 12:57 AM
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#29
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Target Group: Members Posts: 35 Joined: 3-August 03 Member No.: 5,209 |
I missed that one somehow. Yeah, that'd work IMO.
~J |
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Nov 9 2004, 01:01 AM
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#30
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Manus Celer Dei Group: Dumpshocked Posts: 17,013 Joined: 30-December 02 From: Boston Member No.: 3,802 |
Note to self: always check to make sure you're actually the one logged in when someone else has used your computer recently.
~J |
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Nov 9 2004, 02:16 AM
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#31
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Free Spirit Group: Dumpshocked Posts: 3,950 Joined: 26-February 02 From: Bloomington, IN UCAS Member No.: 1,920 |
So what, the majority of armored clothing (stuff the Fashion spell will work on) is legal. [edit]Changed ? to .[/edit] |
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Nov 9 2004, 02:24 AM
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#32
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Immortal Elf Group: Validating Posts: 7,999 Joined: 26-February 02 Member No.: 1,890 |
Uhm... yes. Everything up to Security Armor is. (Okay, I admit it, your use of a question mark has totally baffled me because I *know* you know that.)
I think a lot of people would agree that a blanket Legality code for all spells is silly. Some spells should be more illegal than others, and some should be perfectly legal. Examples of legal spells would include Create Food, Clean [Element], and Healthy Glow. Spells that should be highly illegal at any force include most Combat Spells, Control Manipulations, and Elemental Manipulations. But to defend the current rule, one could say it's a blanket rule due to the fear a lot of mundanes have of magic. Look at the X-Men franchise as a possible example; in that setting, mutants are horribly feared by the public because of what some of them can do... so the public and the government tried to regulate *all* mutants. It's sort of the same difference. I'm not partial to that view, but it has support in the Sixth World setting. |
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Nov 9 2004, 02:33 AM
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#33
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Free Spirit Group: Dumpshocked Posts: 3,950 Joined: 26-February 02 From: Bloomington, IN UCAS Member No.: 1,920 |
Sorry, I edited my original post before posting changing from a question to a statement, because I did know that (;)) and looked it up to verify my faulty memory.
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Nov 9 2004, 02:35 AM
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#34
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Moving Target Group: Members Posts: 903 Joined: 11-December 02 From: The other end of your computer screen Member No.: 3,724 |
LOL Prosecutor: "So you admit to lighting the five Lone Star officers on fire?" Fire Elemental: "Yes, but he made me do it! I'm only an elemental, it's not my fault! I swear! I didn't want to do it." Prosecutor: "Can you point out the man who made you do this to the court?" Fire Elemental: "Yes" *points to the mage* Mage (under his breath at the defense table): "Fragging Traitor" |
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Nov 9 2004, 04:25 AM
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#35
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Neophyte Runner Group: Members Posts: 2,073 Joined: 23-August 04 Member No.: 6,587 |
I would expect it to be relatively easy to get licence for a heal spell. probably compulsory training comparable to a food first aid corse and a fee to cover the corse some will even include access to spell formula for heal, treat, and stabilise and instruction on witch to use when to avoid harming yourself.
The quality of your new look with the fashion spell is linked to successes max force isn’t it. Every magical tailor will have it at the highest force they can manage Compare that to the hoops you need to jump threw for a high force combat spell or control manipulation. According to canon the cost for a licence is comparable to the cost of the item being licensed. What dose the licence for a spell cost anyway?? Edward |
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Nov 9 2004, 09:41 AM
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#36
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Midnight Toker Group: Members Posts: 7,686 Joined: 4-July 04 From: Zombie Drop Bear Santa's Workshop Member No.: 6,456 |
I very much doubt that you can be arrested for knowing a spell. Other than being impossible to prove, it goes against common sense. Teaching spells or selling formula is commerce and is almost certainly regulated as such. It is also important to remember that force 3 or above spells have to be registered, not licensed.
If a mage is caught casting an unregistered spell, he will be arrested, fined, and the fact that he knows the spell will be registered, thus making him perfectly legal but $10,000 nuyen poorer. Foci, on the other hand, will certainly be confiscated. |
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Nov 9 2004, 10:05 AM
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#37
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Canon Companion Group: Members Posts: 8,021 Joined: 2-March 03 From: The Morgue, Singapore LTG Member No.: 4,187 |
Any good astral lawyer would be able to get a runner off on a charge like that, even he did admit to casting it. All he needs to claim is that he was casting it at Force 2. Think about it.
If a army combat mage who should know combat and heal spells at a force higher than 2, presumbly he was taught it in the army by the army, would LS/police be right outside the gate to arrest him the minute he walks out of the base? As much as the astral signature of a mage can be recognised by a mage cop, is every mage cop going to have simrigs? Personally I think the astral photos make more sense. |
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Nov 9 2004, 01:02 PM
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#38
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Moving Target Group: Members Posts: 138 Joined: 24-September 04 Member No.: 6,700 |
photos are barely admissible as evidence nowadays, so I suppose that by 2069 they will be so childishly easy to fake as to be completely inadmissible by themselves..
knowing a spell.. that charge is hard to pin on anyone, "knowing a spell at illegal force" is pretty impossible to stick. one sustained on a foci... not very useful as the mage likely will deactivate the foci.. if he has karma all it takes is a complex to put in there a force1 something.. the only thing they can pin you on is the library which they can confiscate if it contains illegal material & spell formulas. I have never ever been able to actually enforce the illegality of high force spells in a campaign because there is no real credible way how lonestar could keep track of that..unless you are casting spells in the middle of a lonestar astral gathering or something.. DS |
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Nov 9 2004, 01:03 PM
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#39
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Moving Target Group: Members Posts: 903 Joined: 11-December 02 From: The other end of your computer screen Member No.: 3,724 |
Your right. You can't. MitS, p11, The Law: "Bills to regulate the Art itself have continually failed to pass or been struck down by the courts as illegal and unconstitutional..." "A felony commited using magic is always considered a premeditated act."
Not quite. MitS, p11, The Law: "...However, reading astral signatures has achieved the same status as fingerprinting or DNA testing in forensic science." "Many large jurisdictions employ a forensic magician, whose position is analogous to a coroner or medical examiner." You might as be saying that if someone fired an illegal assult rifle that they could say that they shot a hunting rifle and get lesser charges. With the advent of the Forensic Magician, a spell that has been casted is just about equal to a bullet that has been fired. The astral can be examined to determine ripples, spikes in mana, disruptions, and even tell you the trajectory of the cast form the caster to their target. The force of the spell can be determined once the object or person the spell was cast upon is identified just as a Coroner can determine the force of a blow to a body from blunt force trauma. For mental spells, the victim can be examined and the brain can be studied to determine what type of spell causes this kind of mental trauma and at what force it was applied. It's science. They measure. You can't just say, "Well, yeah...but it was force 1 man." when the detective is staring at a report that tells him that from the brain trauma in the head it's obviously a force 3.
I think you might be mistaken here. MitS, p11, The Law: "Currently, any spell, spirit, focus, or other magical effect of Force 3 or higher is legally regulated within the UCAS and CAS, though permits may be acquired to use such magic." "Other contries have widely differeing legal viewpoints toward magic. Great Britain, for example, requires all Awakened citizens to register..." SR3, p174, Street Gear/Local Fines And Punishment (Seattle) [chart]: "(T)Class E Magic: Possesion, 10,000Y/1 yr" "Notes: Class E Magic refers to unregistered spells, spirits, and foci." (this is where you are getting the registered thing) SR3, p173, Street Gear/Making Legal Purchases: "For restricted items--gear with a Legality Code--a permit is necessary to get the item legally. Of course, purchasing gear legally means that there are records of your purchase: credit trails, inventory, perhaps even video surveillance footage, depending on where you shop." SR3, p174, Street Gear/Permits: "If an item's Legality Code features a "P", a permit for the object is available. To apply for a permit, the character must approach the proper government (or corporate) authority and fill out the necessar paperwork. The application requires a valid SIN, and may also require proof of employment, as well as adequate reasons why the permit is necessary." As far as that reads, you need a permit. Not a registration. In Britain, you need to register yourself, not the spell. They didn't say anything about Britain's policy on spells. [edit]And just to be clear on the difference between these two. Registering is to procure documentation to claim ownership of an item as your property. I can register my car at the DMV. That doesn't mean I can drive it. Getting a Permit is to be granted the right to use something under the regulations of the LAW regarding that item's use. Would you be required to register your spells and get a permit? It doesn't say. There is only that one refernce to registration of magic in that one note on that chart on page 174 of SR3, while there's SR3, p173, 174, and MitS p11 saying completely the opposite. My guess? Typo. Was once refered to as registering. Later became permits.[/edit] |
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Nov 9 2004, 01:23 PM
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#40
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Canon Companion Group: Members Posts: 8,021 Joined: 2-March 03 From: The Morgue, Singapore LTG Member No.: 4,187 |
Quite. Let's say, for the sake of argument and for the moment, that you can determine the Force of a spell from trauma. A person may intend to cast a spell at Force 1 but it may still come out Force 3 (Mana Surges p87 MitS). You did not intend to cast the spell at an illegal force, but it did come out at a higher than legal force. Now let us revisit the Force from trauma forensic scenario, pray tell, what is the difference between a Force 2D and a Force 4D on a body that fails the spell resistance? If the target failed the Willpower/Body/other Spell Resistance test, you compare spellcaster Successes to the target's Successes. All the pathologist is going to say is that the target took x amount of damage. The force of the spell is determined from astral space. A special exception is when the astral signature of the spell is still evident on the target for example, Slow Death or even something like Delay Damage. The expert magician can testify that it is unlikely that a low Force spell cause so much damage, but he cannot say conclusively that a high Force spell killed the victim. To use your gun example, all the Forensics is going to testify to is that the 9mm bullet killed the victim. They cannot testify that by looking at the bullet and say it was fired by an SMG or a pistol. A skinny guy is unlikely to have caused massive trauma but it doesn't mean that a big guy must have killed the victim. |
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Nov 9 2004, 02:04 PM
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#41
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Manus Celer Dei Group: Dumpshocked Posts: 17,013 Joined: 30-December 02 From: Boston Member No.: 3,802 |
Hopefully you understand why I found the original text to be silly. ~J |
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Nov 9 2004, 02:19 PM
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#42
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Moving Target Group: Members Posts: 903 Joined: 11-December 02 From: The other end of your computer screen Member No.: 3,724 |
I understand your point Kage man...but there isn't anything illegal in Shadowrun about knowing high force spells.
In fact, you can buy high force spell information (or rather, buying the spell) from a corporation and be competely legal in doing so. They will process the paperwork for you to get the permit just like as if you were buying a hand-gun. Using them without a permit, on the other hand, is illegal. Mind you...you need a SIN to buy legally. |
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Nov 9 2004, 02:58 PM
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#43
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Moving Target Group: Members Posts: 485 Joined: 25-October 04 Member No.: 6,789 |
And we must remember that while something may be illegal it doesn't mean that LS ca do sqaut about it or cares to do anything about it. Why worry about Joe Schmoe who knows StunBall 6 and does frag all, when that slot that knows Death Touch 2 is out murdering streetkids.
Real life example: In Michigan, it is illegal for two people not married to each other to have sexual intercourse. For a reality check there have been no arrests for such a thing in quite some time. |
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Nov 9 2004, 03:08 PM
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#44
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Moving Target Group: Members Posts: 903 Joined: 11-December 02 From: The other end of your computer screen Member No.: 3,724 |
Since magic is always considered pre-meditation when cast, if they plead that they weren't trying for a Force 3, then it would be a ruling of: -1 count of Premeditated Magical Assult -1 count of Involentary Manslaughter
Forensics would look at the body tissue to determine what levels of above normal mana exposure their body was subjected to. Mixed with other pieces of evidence that help determine what type of spell this was (eg. Are they burnt to a crisp? Brain hemorrhaging? etc...), they would be able to determine if the spell was above or below the Force 3 level. They would also be looking at how long the victim sustained a spells damage since a long use of some Force 2 spells could look like Force 3 burst spells.
That is horribly wrong my friend. They can look at the scoring on the round, use their arsenal for such a purpose and fire several shots off until they find the 9mm weapon that can produce similar style of markings on the round. Not only can they do the above, but they can first rule out many possibilities by determining the velocity of the round from it's smashed shape. This will let them know what type of 9mm weapons they are looking for, high velocity or low velocity. Once this is done, they inform the detectives who begin to keep an eye out for that kind of weapon when they do their searches of the suspects property. They can also tell you if the bullet was fired from a weapon that was silenced because silencers and supressors leave track marks seperately on the bullet than the barrel. With the skinny guy: That doesn't even compute in forensic science in any way. I'm sorry, but it doesn't. They don't look at the guy first. They look at the wound and determine the size of the hand and handedness from the bruising or fracture, and look for any odd markings that may indicate rings, gloves, or the like. A mundane forensic team that has a magical forensic analyst on it would be devistating because the coroner would be able to tell everything about the time of death, and physical cause of death as well as any information about marking about the body; the lab would determine if the body was drug anywhere or whether it was murdered where it was found based off of the crime area's surroundings mixed with the coroners report; and with that information the mage would be able to determine the rough location of the spells origin in the astral and determine the spells force based off of the mana disturbance (much like blood spatter can help determine the velocity of a bullet and re-afirm the trajectory), and from the coroners information he would be able to detemine the type of spell category (in most cases: at least) that was used. Then the mundane forensics would match any DNA, hair, cloth or other evidence to the suspect along with the magical analasys that was ran to determine ownership of the spell casted. |
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Nov 9 2004, 03:12 PM
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#45
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Moving Target Group: Members Posts: 903 Joined: 11-December 02 From: The other end of your computer screen Member No.: 3,724 |
Aside from being completely insulting to the conversation at hand, that example is horribly un-comparible. You might as well say that it's illegal to do curb-side card tricks because their magic, Is anyone going to do anything? no. The spell attacks are equal to murders with firearms. And those do not get ignored. They may get done sloppy on the investigation, but they don't get ignored by the law. |
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Nov 9 2004, 03:16 PM
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#46
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Moving Target Group: Members Posts: 485 Joined: 25-October 04 Member No.: 6,789 |
You are forgetting on thing in the legal systems. How does Dr. Forensic Mage ThD describe this to Joanne Jurist? Awakened people have sense that no mundane can ever hope to even slightly understand. So bringing in the forensic mage as an expert witness is more likely to backfire. It would only be done in those cases where they already have a preponderance of evidence. Otherwise the testimony just opens up reasonable doubt.
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Nov 9 2004, 03:20 PM
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#47
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Moving Target Group: Members Posts: 903 Joined: 11-December 02 From: The other end of your computer screen Member No.: 3,724 |
Ok...that kind of junk.
That's for the lawyers. All I'm saying is that the friggen CSI mage tech can find out who cast the spell, and at what force when networked with the rest of the team. Forensic's investigators everywhere have seen cases walk that, according to their evidence, shouldn't. That's what good lawyers are for. |
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Nov 9 2004, 03:24 PM
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#48
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Moving Target Group: Members Posts: 485 Joined: 25-October 04 Member No.: 6,789 |
I was talking merely of the misguided belief that the legal system would do something about a person who simply knows a spell. I know how to make plastique, napalm and crude nuclear devices. I'm sure several agencies know I can do such things. Since I have done nothing with it though I am left alone. Now it is a completely different story when you are talking about someone who uses a spell in a harmful fashion. Sure the guy who uses the illegal rated StunBall against some ganger harassing citizen might get questioned heavily, but by an large he will be left alone. Now as for that child killing Death Touch mage who knows it at force 2 (therefore a legal spell) is going to be hunted like nobodies business. It's not the spell, it's what you do with it. |
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Nov 9 2004, 03:27 PM
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#49
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Man In The Machine Group: Dumpshocked Posts: 2,264 Joined: 26-February 02 From: I-495 S Member No.: 1,105 |
To an extent Im envisioning is like a pipe bomb. Its prefectly leagal to buy everything you might need to make one, and its not illegal to know how to make one, but making them is something very different.
Someone mentioned that different spells would have different restrictions, and it makes prefect sence. Seriously, how legal is it to cast somehting really henious like toxic wave, or Slaughter (race), vs something like ice sheet, or detox, or trid entertainment. Its a matter of how it gets used. Id think the act of just casting Control Actions out of a controlled enviroment would be grounds for fines, police records, ect. If the 16 year old working in the back of Walmart busts out his newly enhanced Catalog 4, are the cops gonna haul him down town for the same charge if he had gone into the vacent lot down the street and started working the kinks out of his Flame Aura 4? (Edit: dont ask me why he knows flame aura at all, party trick maybey?) Im not trying to get in a flame war or anything, Im honestly interested in people opinions here... This post has been edited by Lindt: Nov 9 2004, 03:31 PM |
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Nov 9 2004, 03:28 PM
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#50
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Moving Target Group: Members Posts: 903 Joined: 11-December 02 From: The other end of your computer screen Member No.: 3,724 |
oh, well yeah...knowing the spell isn't a crime. Hell, you can buy them in corps legally.
And it's partly the force of the spell and yes it is what you do with it too. |
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