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> Using 2 pistols at the same time, What would the penalties be?
GrinderTheTroll
post Nov 8 2004, 06:26 PM
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So all runners wanna do it one time or another it seems and time SR3 rules are tripping me up a bit.

The PC has SL-2 (no ambidexterity edge) and is firing x2 Ares 3 (SL-2, RC1)

What would the penalties be for him weilding and firing each weapon (SA x2) in the same combat phase?

Thanks.

This post has been edited by GrinderTheTroll: Nov 8 2004, 06:29 PM
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Kagetenshi
post Nov 8 2004, 06:27 PM
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+2 per pistol, recoil applies to both pistols, further penalties for aiming at different targets, smartlinks provide no TN mods.

At Short range and with no recoil comp, firing at one target, TNs would be 6/6 and then 8/8.

~J
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Critias
post Nov 8 2004, 06:35 PM
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In other words, he's racking up impressive TN mods. No Smartlink (which is already a TN of 2 worse than he's used to), a base +2 for using a second weapon, the recoil adds up very very fast, and he takes MORE TN penalties if he tries to do anything more than unload at one guy.

It's really not worth it unless you've got Ambidexterity, lots of recoil comp, and don't rely on targeting systems in the first place. Adepts can pull it off better than most (partially because not relying on smartlinks is part of their gig anyhow, partially because they can have tons of dice to throw at it, partially because they can Center against penalties)... but even then, you're normally going to do a lot better with one gun, taking your time and firing properly.

Just like in real life.
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Kagetenshi
post Nov 8 2004, 06:37 PM
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FA-capable SMGs and the suppressive fire rules can work nicely, though.

~J
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Ol' Scratch
post Nov 8 2004, 06:37 PM
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Only uncompensated recoil is applied to both weapons. On the first Simple Action there is no recoil at all (neither weapon is producing any). On the second shot, each one is absorbing their independant recoil so, again, no recoil is being applied.

Thus the target numbers would be 6/6 and 6/6.
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hobgoblin
post Nov 8 2004, 06:39 PM
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spray and pray...
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lorthazar
post Nov 8 2004, 06:42 PM
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Actually all that is if you are firing the two handguns at the same time. I have a few character who use two Beretta 300X (a custom gun based on Equilibrium) one loaded with APDS and the other loaded with Glaser. Against armored opponents the APDS rips through like nobodies business, and for the paranormal animals and the ocassional unarmored combatant the Glaser rips them to shreds. Since I never fire the two weapons during the same combat phase I ignore all the penalties. This makes for good tactical thinking on the part of your gunslingers.
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Ol' Scratch
post Nov 8 2004, 06:44 PM
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QUOTE (Kagetenshi)
FA-capable SMGs and the suppressive fire rules can work nicely, though.

A decent amount of recoil compensation (Gas Vent IV, Personalized Grip, Underbarrel Weight) and use of either Tracer or Incendiary Rounds can actually work quite nicely to compensate for the +2/+2 modifier on 6-round FA bursts. No need for the Suppressive Fire rules, either.
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Kagetenshi
post Nov 8 2004, 06:47 PM
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QUOTE (Doctor Funkenstein)
Thus the target numbers would be 6/6 and 6/6.

That's accurate. I had missed his note that there was recoil comp involved, though in my defense I did state that my numbers were sans recoil comp.

~J
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Arz
post Nov 8 2004, 06:47 PM
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Never overlook the bounty that is suppression fire. After he has used up his combat pool any fool can hit him. If he just soaks you can still get lucky, and he takes a wound.
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Ol' Scratch
post Nov 8 2004, 06:48 PM
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I was just correcting the numbers for his example. Wasn't trying to say you were wrong. Sorry if it came across that way.
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GrinderTheTroll
post Nov 8 2004, 07:02 PM
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QUOTE (Kagetenshi)
QUOTE (Doctor Funkenstein @ Nov 8 2004, 01:37 PM)
Thus the target numbers would be 6/6 and 6/6.

That's accurate. I had missed his note that there was recoil comp involved, though in my defense I did state that my numbers were sans recoil comp.

~J

So +2 per weapon is the only penalty (for this scenario)?

What about shooting the 1st pistol at Target A and 2nd pistol at Target B?
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lorthazar
post Nov 8 2004, 07:03 PM
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Oooh, i just had an evil thought. Using twin Remington Roomsweepers with shot ammo. Double the power, Double the fun.
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Ol' Scratch
post Nov 8 2004, 07:04 PM
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Grinder: Yes, the +2/+2 penalty is the only one unique to your situation beyond the lack of a targeting bonus for a smartlink or laser sight. Otherwise, all standard modifiers apply. That includes the one for multiple targets.
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Kagetenshi
post Nov 8 2004, 07:05 PM
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QUOTE (GrinderTheTroll)
So +2 per weapon is the only penalty (for this scenario)?

What about shooting the 1st pistol at Target A and 2nd pistol at Target B?

+2 for a second target, so it'd be 6/8 6/8.

~J
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Everfast
post Nov 8 2004, 07:14 PM
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Do you think there should be a penalty to someone who uses their right hand in pass 1 and their left in pass 2 for instance? Is there no off-handedness penalty?
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Moon-Hawk
post Nov 8 2004, 07:15 PM
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If you have 6point ambidexterity then there's no penalty. If not, you are using a different skill, off-hand pistols, or you're defauting to that skill from pistols, so there's your penalty.
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GrinderTheTroll
post Nov 8 2004, 07:19 PM
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I am looking for the penalty, not the Target number, so I could apply it as needed.

So for this case, +2/+2 (can't use SL-2) for 4 shots at the same target and +2/+4 for 2 shots at target A and +2/+4 for 2 shots at Target B.

Thanks all, I had it slightly wrong.
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Critias
post Nov 8 2004, 07:19 PM
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There's no such thing as "off hand pistols."
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Moon-Hawk
post Nov 8 2004, 07:22 PM
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Oh, are offhand skills only for melee weapons? I guess I forgot about that, 'cause it's stupid. ;)
My fault. Sorry to post bad info.
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Critias
post Nov 8 2004, 07:24 PM
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Yup. You just use your normal Pistols skill (or SMG or whatever is applicable) for an off-hand shooting attack. Which, as you mentioned, is stupid (it's easy to get irritated at how differently they treat the modifiers, skills required, and general rules for melee versus ranged combat).
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Kagetenshi
post Nov 8 2004, 07:27 PM
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Given that melee and ranged combat are nothing whatsoever like each other, it makes a little tiny bit of sense.

~J
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Critias
post Nov 8 2004, 07:31 PM
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I'm just noting this is the third or fourth time I've had to point out specifically to someone there's no "off hand pistols" or "off hand smgs" skills -- it's an easy assumption for people to make, given the slew of new (well, not new any more) rules about ambidexterity and various two-weapon methods of harming people, in CC.

They read over the Ambidexterity Edge, they see there's a couple pages of new stuff, they see a big skill list that's all "Off Hand This" and "Off Hand That," and people make a fairly easy assumption, I guess.

I mean, if I need a whole new skill to use two knives at once, it's not any less logical to think I'd need a whole new skill to use two pistols at once, too. It's an easy mistake.
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Kagetenshi
post Nov 8 2004, 07:37 PM
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It wasn't elegant, but as compared to applying one of the two current sets of Ambidex rules to both types of combat, I think I prefer it.

~J
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Stumps
post Nov 8 2004, 07:43 PM
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It's easy to get lost in the text, math, game and forget about what the game is trying hard to immitate.
A form of reality through the medium of being believable.

If you come to a rulling and see what their intintions were, but see a better approach to reach a believable reference to an immitated reality, then by all means...strike into it.


Me personally...I think, at this point anyways without much look into it, that I would have an easier time shooting someone with my left hand at medium range by means of multiple shots than by swinging a sword with my left hand.

That's just me.
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