 [SoA2064] Charms, Too limited or too powerful? |
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 Nov 8 2004, 11:58 PM
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#1
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Beetle Eater  Group: Dumpshocked Posts: 4,797 Joined: 3-June 02 From: Oblivion City Member No.: 2,826  |
Well, with an Availability of 4 and a thousand nuyen price tag, there isn't much stopping a starting character from having a few of these around, but are they worth it?
Personally, I think they are a little limited in scope. A Karma Charm is nice, but why not a Shielding Charm or even a Spell Defense Charm? |
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Nov 9 2004, 12:24 AM
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#2
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Immortal Elf Group: Validating Posts: 7,999 Joined: 26-February 02 Member No.: 1,890 |
I suggested some ideas for rules that fit the theme of charms a while ago. My suggestion revolved around allowing a magician to target anyone wearing one of his charms regardless of their location, much in the same way they can sense the condition of any wards they create or through ritual sorcery. That way, they can apply Spell Defense to someone without having to travel with them, cast a spell of protection on them, and so on and so forth. Different types of charms would have different costs for their specific abilities, of course; they wouldn't be a universal thing.
What we have in SOTA:2064 is just... weird. Free Karma Pool for pennies? Whatever. It's especially strange, however, considering the restriction that only witches can produce them. The creation of charms is hardly a talent that only witches are capable of both in reality and in fiction. |
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Nov 9 2004, 12:28 AM
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#3
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Beetle Eater Group: Dumpshocked Posts: 4,797 Joined: 3-June 02 From: Oblivion City Member No.: 2,826 |
What you describe almost sounds like a Symbolic Link Focus...
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Nov 9 2004, 12:38 AM
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#4
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Immortal Elf Group: Validating Posts: 7,999 Joined: 26-February 02 Member No.: 1,890 |
Sorta kinda but not really, and only in reverse. The target carries the charm and is voluntarily allowing the magician to target him out of range. Symbolic Links just increase the chance of finding a hostile or non-hostile target via ritual sorcery.
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Nov 9 2004, 02:48 AM
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#5
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Great Dragon Group: Members Posts: 6,748 Joined: 5-July 02 Member No.: 2,935 |
It's a bit of a balance issue, restricting certain types of foci to certain types of magicians.
There are a few talents any magician can conceivably develop the ability to use, like Rune-Magic and using animal materials when Enchanting, even though those talents are normally only practiced by certain types of magicians. |
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Nov 9 2004, 02:50 AM
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#6
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Beetle Eater Group: Dumpshocked Posts: 4,797 Joined: 3-June 02 From: Oblivion City Member No.: 2,826 |
I might agree with that limited availability as well. I think this is just a talent that is "currently" limited to this one group due in part to skepticism about that tradition's validity. |
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Nov 9 2004, 02:56 AM
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#7
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Immortal Elf Group: Validating Posts: 7,999 Joined: 26-February 02 Member No.: 1,890 |
I have no problem with restrictions as long as those restrictions make sense. But this is on par with making Weapon Foci limited to Adepts of the Warrior's Way. It's not a unique concept, let alone a concept unique to witches.
Besides, where's the game balance? Like Kanada Ten pointed out earlier, the Availability is a breeze and they're dirt cheap. |
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Nov 9 2004, 03:05 AM
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#8
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Great Dragon Group: Members Posts: 6,748 Joined: 5-July 02 Member No.: 2,935 |
A fair point. GM's could reasonably rule that as a European Availability only and jack it up elsewhere in the world, but a fair point.
I have no good answers for you, really. It has a certain flavor, and they're not exactly gamebreakers even if you have a player that damn near chain-smokes the things during a run, but I dunno. |
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Nov 9 2004, 04:17 AM
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#9
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Technomancer Group: Retired Admins Posts: 4,638 Joined: 2-October 02 From: Champaign, IL Member No.: 3,374 |
I think they're fine and very interesting flavor items for the fun of it.
I take that to mean that a character can have only one "active" charm at a time so no chain smoking them unless they're actually enchanting them which is a different story!
(Bold emphasis mine) Plus, this seems to say that you re-roll the whole test not just the failures (as you do with Karma Pool) and since it takes a Simple Action to do so I see it as being very limited to saving people from a botch. As for the Witch only creation limitation, I don't really mind. I could see extending it to include other shamanic paths (i.e. bags of Aztlan worry dolls) but I think hermetics would still think it too touchy-feely to totally buy it. Then again, the unified magical theory types would probably love the idea. And, I wonder who the first person will be to extend this form of enchanting and try to get that item from Dunkie's Will which provides oricalcum for a magical item usable by mundanes 8)
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Nov 9 2004, 04:22 AM
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#10
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Immortal Elf Group: Validating Posts: 7,999 Joined: 26-February 02 Member No.: 1,890 |
That would/should go to whoever first published the information for Sustaining Foci (and failling that, Anchoring Foci). Mundanes can use both of those foci, and in the case of the latter they can even activate and deactive it on a whim (if so designed).
The will only says "use" afterall. |
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Nov 9 2004, 09:17 PM
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#11
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Running Target Group: Members Posts: 1,129 Joined: 11-June 03 From: Tir Tairngire Member No.: 4,712 |
Hmmm, that's interesting text...
If taken at face value, then it does imply the entire test is re-rolled. The first time I read this, my mind read it as the same as spending a point of Karma to re-roll failures. As for whether I have an issue with only witches being able to create them, nah. Like some of the others here, I think its a nice bit of flavor. To be honest, I like that the gamedevs are making things a bit different amongst the magicians. Shadowrun has never been about copying reality (or in this case, magical traditions) "verbatim" after all. The Shadowrun universe is a splinter universe where our real history only has a marginal bearing on its outcome. It is not the final say in it though and I'm happy its not. If that were the case, magic in Shadowrun would be severely gimped over. I suppose if a hard answer is *necessary*, one could always say that either the other magical groups who had traditionally been able to create charms simply haven't been awakened to the rememberance of how to do so yet. Or perhaps, there is another "awakening" in store for them. |
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Nov 9 2004, 09:21 PM
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#12
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Immortal Elf Group: Validating Posts: 7,999 Joined: 26-February 02 Member No.: 1,890 |
Assuming that's not simply a typo, it's just plain dumb. Karma Pool is used to reroll failures, not complete tests. If the mechanics for the Charm were intended to be something new, it seems incredibly stupid to even mention Karma or Karma Pool for a brand new mechanic that has nothing to do with Karma or Karma Pool.
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Nov 9 2004, 10:03 PM
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#13
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Technomancer Group: Retired Admins Posts: 4,638 Joined: 2-October 02 From: Champaign, IL Member No.: 3,374 |
You completely re-roll open tests, IIRC. |
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Nov 9 2004, 10:06 PM
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#14
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Immortal Elf Group: Validating Posts: 7,999 Joined: 26-February 02 Member No.: 1,890 |
That would be for Open Tests, obviously. Again, if it's not simply a typo (which I'm sure it is), then they're still creating a whole new mechanic and rule. It should simply say "it allows you to reroll a single test." There's no need to mention Karma Pool at all (hell, there's no need to mention it even if it *is* a typo).
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Nov 9 2004, 10:26 PM
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#15
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Runner Group: Members Posts: 3,314 Joined: 26-February 02 From: Lisbon, Cidade do Pecado Member No.: 185 |
Dashifen - Funkenstein is partially correct. The wording was cut slightly in either final drafting or editing (have to dig up the files to check) and is now ambiguous. Charms were intended to grant the chance to tweak fate in your favor when things didn't go your way. The text should read:
The Charms in SOTA are designed around the concept of RL "luck charms" or simply "charms". These are a feature of traditional witchcraft and pagan traditions (including, it is believed, druidism and pre-Christian Goddess worship) but despite what a lot of the fiction would have you believe they don't actually feature in Hermeticism (classical, alchemical, neo-classical or the magickal), Qabbalism (Orthodox or the hermetic variety) or North American shamanic traditions (which use fetishes and spirit items and generally lack the "fate weaving" concept). Note that although many neo-pagans now boast "charms" these are actually ritual focusing tools, or what in SR would be called spell locks for "workings", rather than what charms were originally all about (ie. luck charms). Some New Agers and Wiccans do claim to use charms in the original sense but they're not really based on any age-old formulas or fabrication techniques (which is the idea behind the way traditional witches do it). In SR they were introduced the way they were because though "luck charms" exist in many neo-pagan traditions that fit luck/probability/fate manipulation into their cosmology, we judged it "cool" that it turned out that the tradition that has knowledge of the technique involved is the one that stuck closest to its roots (ie. witchcraft) and the one most people underestimate because it is apparently weaker. Charms or Luck Charms, as currently presented, may also be appropriate to some African shamanism (Central African shamanism as practiced by witch doctors rather than South African animist shamanism), many Eastern mystical traditions (especially Daoist Wujen as well as Hindu and Tibetan mysticism) and certain hybrids like Santeria and Candomble common in Brazil, Latin America and the Carribean, to which "weaving" or "influencing" fate is integral to the cosmology. BTW - I have been looking into a "grounding focus" or "sympathetic focus" like the one Funk mentions for a while, but keeping it balanced is more complicated than it seems. I've so far considered requiring ritual sorcery for the casting because I think simple spellcasting may be subject to abuse (basically by eliminating the LOS requisite for "friendly spells"). So far the most balanced (and harder to abuse) I've come up with is a variant, which until I come up with a better name I'm calling "twined foci" - under which two foci are bonded to each other and they provide the link for Spellcasting (the magician casts into one focus and the effect sympathetically manifests through the twin). While I am interested in discussing this further I won't do so on the open forum simply because I hope to actually use it somewhere down the line. Funk, or anyone else interested in exchanging ideas and developing this particular concept further, please contact me by PM. |
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Nov 9 2004, 10:30 PM
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#16
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Beetle Eater Group: Dumpshocked Posts: 4,797 Joined: 3-June 02 From: Oblivion City Member No.: 2,826 |
That was pretty much my thought with the added bonus of providing spell defense to person who bonded the twin (provided both were in physical contact with the separate foci). |
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Nov 9 2004, 11:30 PM
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#17
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Technomancer Group: Retired Admins Posts: 4,638 Joined: 2-October 02 From: Champaign, IL Member No.: 3,374 |
So if I read that correctly, you still redo the test, not just re-roll the failures, right? |
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Nov 9 2004, 11:43 PM
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#18
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Runner Group: Members Posts: 3,314 Joined: 26-February 02 From: Lisbon, Cidade do Pecado Member No.: 185 |
Yep. The whole Test is rerolled.
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Nov 9 2004, 11:45 PM
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#19
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Beetle Eater Group: Dumpshocked Posts: 4,797 Joined: 3-June 02 From: Oblivion City Member No.: 2,826 |
That explains the cost.
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Nov 9 2004, 11:50 PM
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#20
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Immortal Elf Group: Validating Posts: 7,999 Joined: 26-February 02 Member No.: 1,890 |
So, again, there was no point in even mentioning Karma or Karma Pool -- it has zero relation to it whatsoever, well, save for the rare Open Test. Though considering the wording, one can now argue that it's only useful for Open Tests since it gives you a Karma Pool point solely for that purpose (and you can't/don't use Karma Pool for that purpose with normal tests).
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Nov 10 2004, 12:02 AM
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#21
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Runner Group: Members Posts: 3,314 Joined: 26-February 02 From: Lisbon, Cidade do Pecado Member No.: 185 |
Karma is mentioned in the text only as regards the Karma that is "loaded" into the charm and then expended to achieve the end effect. Karma Pool is not mentioned at any point.
I disagree with your thoughts regarding its usefulness though. For instance, were my character to fail an Electronics Test to crack a maglock, he could tap the charm and reroll the Test (without the increased target numbers of repeating said Test). If the character rolled abominably in a Damage Resistance Test, he could tap the Charm to reroll the Test. Were he negotiating with a Johnson in an Opposed Test, and get completely creamed by rolling well below average successes, he could reroll the Test hoping to get better the result. It doesn't guarantee a better result like spending Karma Pool does but it gives you another chance to do better when something definitely isn't going your way. [edit] A couple of people have mentioned they've understood and used Charms as a one point Karma Pool for (standard) rerolls. As printed this is indeed one possible interpretation. I will be checking if this was what the rewording intended so for now it remains a valid interpretation. |
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Nov 10 2004, 12:14 AM
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#22
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Immortal Elf Group: Validating Posts: 7,999 Joined: 26-February 02 Member No.: 1,890 |
In that case I stand corrected. The needless use to talk about Karma so readily through the text is just misleading since the only time you can use Karma for a reroll is when using Karma Pool. It would have been better to have simply said that it costs one point of Karma to create the charm and then never mention it again.
Or in other words, it would have been more consistant and less confusing to have instead worded it so it said something like, "...may tap the charm and release the magic invested within to reroll a single failed Test." |
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Nov 10 2004, 12:21 AM
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#23
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Immortal Elf Group: Members Posts: 11,410 Joined: 1-October 03 From: Pittsburgh Member No.: 5,670 |
hm. that section could definitely be worded better; most SR players who read the words "Karma" and "rerolling" in the same sentence are going to assume that it's a Karma reroll.
the word Karma really isn't important to the description of the charm's usage; i'd remove it completely, in order to make it clearer. say "magic" or something, instead. i'd also make it clearer that the entire test is being rerolled. all that aside, i like charms. the balancing factor, here, is that you can never have more than one of them. they're just... well, good luck charms. you (might) get extra-lucky one time, and that's it. here's a question, though: can you karma reroll the charm's reroll? say i make a damage resistance test, and i don't like the result. i karma it, and still don't do well. so i decided to scrap the whole thing, and use my good luck charm to totally reroll the test. i do okay, but i want more successes--can i karma the charm roll? if so, how much does this new karma reroll cost? |
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Nov 10 2004, 12:25 AM
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#24
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Immortal Elf Group: Validating Posts: 7,999 Joined: 26-February 02 Member No.: 1,890 |
Actually you can carry and own as many as you like. You can only have one bonded to you at any given time due to the weird and unfounded characteristic that they somehow burn out all your other bonded charms even if they're on the other side of the planet.
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Nov 10 2004, 12:36 AM
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#25
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Immortal Elf Group: Members Posts: 11,410 Joined: 1-October 03 From: Pittsburgh Member No.: 5,670 |
not really. you, the user, don't--and, if i read the rules correctly, can't--pay any karma to bond the charm; the karma must be paid by the witch that creates the charm. unless you've got a witch that likes you so much that he or she is willing to follow you around with a bag of charms to give you when you use up the one you've got, you're limited to just one charm at a time.
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