Right, enough of this sustained spell nonsense... Options

[Sunday_Gamer]

I always read about it, I always hear about it and it's just not right.
Magic is powerful, but it has it's limitations and drawbacks.

You always here about "Oh ya well he quickens these 3 spells and then the thing the thing and now he's unstoppable" or very similar BS and frankly, that's just not viable in Seattle.

So to all you GMs out there who feel they've lost control because they're mages are too powerful on account of the armada of spells on them, well, listen up.

A spell is PLAINLY visible from astral space. Each spell has it's own form, so a guy walking around with three spells on him is also walking around with those 3 spells astral forms. The force of the spell may not affect how bright the form is but the form IS there and it is CLEARLY visible to anyone with astral perception.

An ascensing roll is needed to determine the force or even whether the force is greater than the mages own magic rating. However, there are intrinsic penalties to walking around with spells quickened or anchored or sustained for that matter.

For one thing, well you're walking around with a spell on and everyone (with astral perception) knows it. So what you ask? Well other than clearly indicating you're a spell slinger to anyone looking aside, all spells, spirits and foci with a force of 3 or greater are illegal. (8-F)T which carries a penalty of a 10 000 :nuyen: fine and 1 year in prison.

So before you start walking around with an armada of spells quickened and anchored on foci, please remember that it's basically the same as a sam walking around with his assault rifle on his shoulder, 24 hours a day, and at least in the games I play, that'll get you killed or locked up in a damn hurry.

Sunday.

[Curugul]

I'll take deliberate masking for $500 Alex


Curugul

ps. In a game where quickened spells are treated like that, there's a second easy fix... use sustaining foci instead. Yes, this makes mages able to be ambushed more easily, but it frankly does jack to their power on most runs.

[Sunday_Gamer]

Deliberate masking for 500? I'd take it for 10 000 if I were you, you're gonna need it to pay the fine.

First, that requires an initiate with masking, not hard at all, my shaman is a rank 1 initiate and the first thing he took was masking, too useful to be able to be dual while not looking like it.

However, masking can only cover you and your grade in force of spells or foci.

Using sustaining foci won't help. If the focus is Force 3 or greater and is bound to you, active or not, it has a clearly visible astral form and it's still illegal.

Which leaves deliberate masking. Well that won't help you AT ALL. Deliberate masking is a conscious action to "tighten" an existing astral mask. Which in no way allows you to extend your astral mask to things beyond it's scope, so unless you CAN extend your mask to cover something, strengthening a non existent mask won't help.

So you can extend your mask to cover a total of your grade in force of spell or foci and you have the option to focus and strengthen this mask. How does this get around anything?

Sunday.

[Sphynx]

Another quick note for you non-GM's out there.... visibility of a spell is still dependant on being seen (LOS). And unlike an Assault Rifle which does NOT have a P for Permit on it's legality rating, a spell is legal at ANY Force if you have a Permit.

Cost for a permit for a Force 6 sustained spell:
Deadly Drain: 600 :nuyen:
Serious Drain: 300 :nuyen:
Moderate Drain: 60 :nuyen:
Light Drain: 30 :nuyen:

So make sure to allocate your starting :nuyen: towards some Permits, just in case. :P

Sphynx

[Sunday_Gamer]

Again, not really happening.

Go take another look at the rules for permits. I direct you to the very first line which pretty much well says it all.

" Realistically, Legality and Shadowrunning don't mix. "

It pretty much goes downhill from there. Your shadowrunners really shouldn't be able to produce the requirements nor have a valid reason to have such foci.

But let's say, they have an iron tight Alias, and that alias though careful maneuvering and whatever means, gets everything he or she needs to get that permit. Great! Well that's the permit for the focus, a sustaining focus you say? Excellent so you're a mage then eh? Well you'll want a permit for all your illegal spells or at the very least for the spell you plan to use with the sustaining focus, right? Well then you're going to have to register that spell, don't mind us while me take a print of your astral signature, just part of the permit process, you know paperwork!

Oh I'm sorry, someone having your astral signature on file might cause you a few headaches while living your illegal life? Well, that's ok, look at that shiny focus you're wearing, ain't it purty?

Sunday.

[Sphynx]

Uhm.... I wasn't talking about foci. I was talking about Spell Permit. Those are the prices for walking around with those spells.

My PC has all his spells registered, and is actually a law abiding citizen. I've done a few runs, but never ever something that'd be blatantly illegal, so I don't even care if people see my signature. I guess it depends on how you play the game.

Lets see, started out hitting a place out side of seattle that was involved in Toxic Magic. That got us entertwined into a mess with Chicago (whichstill is and always will be Bug City in our games) where we got stuck for a few months. Came back and followed clues that led us to some new Dragon in Denver who paid us handsomely to take care of some Atzlan issues, which led us into a merc type work in the Amazonian areas, and have only recently gotten back to Seattle 2 games ago. Been working with LoneStar since then to capture a rather nasty group of Runners who think the idea of Running is killing everything in site.

You want my Permit, here you go. Want my Astral Signature, here you go. Now you show me your liscense and registration please. :P

Seriously, what's the big deal of being on file, just don't break the law! Or if you do... do it against someone who's got more to gain from not reporting anything than visa versa.

The biggest mistake I see in most RPGs is that players want to be criminals, if you going to walk around as an "astral beacon", then stay cool with the law. I've got LoneStar's back ANY DAY of the week, I double dog dare anyone to fuck with them when I'm around... :P

Sphynx

[Adarael]

I have a realistic question here. For the average joe, anything with a force of over 3 is illegal, yeh? Done. This means that in Seattle, only 1% of the population is magically active, and about 50% of that is actually able to astrally percieve or project. This means roughly 15,000 people in Seattle can astrally percieve or project.


Now, how many magically active individuals have been snatched up by Universities, Corps, private security agencies around the city, or have otherwise gotten permits for their heinous shit that they have up (to quicken them on Joe Corp, their boss, as a favor... Or say, because they work for City Water and Power, and have to go into the north end of Puyallup to repair lines, and need some sheilding against the rampant gang activity there). Now, of those left - be they Lone Star or whoever guards your city of choice - how many of them have the time and wherewithal to stop random joes on the street and inquire about their permits being in order? And how many mages are on FRTs, as opposed to walking the beat?

In Seattle, there are probably about 50-100 full time shamans and mages employed by Lone Star that aren't on-call as FRT combat mages, detectives embroiled in intruige, or used as forensics experts. In a city of 3 million, they just plain do NOT have the time to stop everyone they see with high-powered spells up, simply because in corporate circles, the number of quickened spells on important people vastly outnumbers the amount of mages casting said spells. And what if they make life difficult for someone that *does* have their permits in order, and said guy works for someone important who can talk to the LS Mage's boss? Maybe get pay docked, or have him assigned to some crappy detail he hates working?

No, folks, I think the chances of dropping through the cracks as far as legality is concerned is quite high. The chances of going unnoticed, unhunted by curious corps/maignant magical forces is significantly higher than your chance of going to jail.

[Sphynx]

Your stats are just a wee bit off Adarael.

The number of Beat Cops out on patrol who can Astrally perceive is directly proportional to the dislike a GM has with sustained spells. :P

Seriously, they are good ideas for GMs who don't like that sort of behaviour. I just prefer our GM who adapts to our behavior instead of trying to force it.

Sphynx

[The White Dwarf]

As much as I would squish Sphynx in my game (sorry man) he did nail the important point on the head here:

It all depends on how you play the game.

In our games, hed get squished, becase we tend to have a "in the dystopian shadows of a corporate world" bent happening, where the runners are illegal simple by existing, and paid by the corps to do dirty work. If one of our guys was on file, *and then was tagged as part of a job* hed be hunted down or locked away unless he acted fast to fade away. Nothing personal, just the machine would eat you =)

But, like he and I said, thats all in how you play the game. Yea, I think having a billion quickened spells is silly, because it would be extremly difficult to operate on our kinds of runs like that. But if youre doing the kinda things he describes, maybe its not such a hinderence. Astral liscense in chicago? Hmm... Astral issues with Aztlan? Nobody likes them anyhow... Never messed with the law in Seattle? Its possible you could plausibly maintain a cover idenity (or a real one) if all your work was out of town. Again, Im not endorsing it either way, just pointing out that what works for some doesnt work for all.

[motorfirebox]

sunday gamer, you're mistaken. deliberate masking can cover as much Force in foci and active spells as you can hit with a deliberate masking attempt at that TN (force 4 focus + force 4 quickened spell = TN 8). this is explained under "Masking Foci and Spells", MitS pg 76.

on the other hand, deliberate masking is an exclusive magical action, which means you can't cast any spells or summon any spirits--or even, i believe, command your existing spirits--while doing it. (given that doing any of the above would make your masking moot, anyway.)

[hobgoblin]

there is allso the fact that its not only mages and shamans (and any adept with astral perception) that knows whats going on in the astral, do not forget about dual natured beings and spirits, both will atleast react to that walking beacon of light (i recall a description of someone with 2-3 sustained spells on a football stadion being visible to anyone else trying to look at the area astraly). many mages in the security enviroment will use theyre downtime ot set up spirit guards (locked on partrol with karma) and wards (and contact of quickend spell vs wards is bad for spell!). and dont come talking about the fact that the wizard only have to sync his aura with the ward, to do that he must know the ward is there and that means opening himself up the astral space (hello spirits). oh and btw, anyone know the purely astral speed of a spirit? its damn fast!

[Greyfoxx]

Spirit: Oh, hello too mage! care to join us? snicker, snicker

[hobgoblin]

and that requires for the magican to go head to head with the spirts summoner, enjoy (those security mages are no university pushovers, most should match or better most runners). in any case you just warned security that the facility is under attack! expect magical and physicla ecurity to drop by asap!

[Playing Games]

The whole forceof a spell making itillagal is wack. It should bebased on what the spell does.knowing how to heal people should not be a crime, nor teaching people to heal people, butslay should be at any force level....

[Sphynx]

No offense taken White Dwarf, but I do have to say that in our Games, you characters would probably get squished too. :P

Seriously, I hear all about these great magic defenses, from high-initate mages with mega spirits/wards etc which in our games only happens at AA or AAA types, or a lucky A. But then also hear how the non-magic types do well. Where is the mundane security?

Try to stealth run a corp that has that kinda magic security. Fight the vibration detectors on the ground (everyone got traceless walk or something?) the Security Rigger with his backup running Security Drones on the premises and a Red Zone matrix with the same number of supprt Deckers that you have Mages (deckers are, after all, alot less exspensive) the ultra sound detectors, the Army of Security Guards and the Rating 8+ Maglocks you have to overcome.

You think if you can 'sneak' past all that mundane defense, a mage type can't figure out how to get past a few wards/spirits and maintain his stealth?

Now read the story in the book, walking through the front door practically with Improved Invis and enough guards to level city block.

Also look at the number of Mages in a population and the percentage that work for corp and the percentage of that which should be initiates and the percentage of that which can summon spirits, cast spells and the percentage of THAT group which are awake at the hour you hit a place.

I'm personally don't object to good magic defense that prevents a stealth entrance, but do you guys balance it by doing the same on the mundane level, just better (since it's cheaper and more common)? You honestly think that you could stealth into a place that a sustained spell couldn't? Take out the Rigger(s) and Decker(s) before they can raise an alarm? That's what I usually do with the mages, I personally make sure there's nothing to raise an alarm when I stealth a place, and I don't enter a place that I'm not ready to walk straight out of without my objective if I think my stealth didn't work.

Anyhows, guess I'm rambling now. :P

Sphynx

[TinkerGnome]

[Talia Invierno]

I'd argue that enforcement of illegality would be proportional to:

a) the percentage of law enforcement personnel capable of catching it;
b) the percentage of common citizenry both capable of catching it and willing to do something about it;
c) the blatancy of the magical effect;
d) the harm to others caused by the magical effect;
e) the environment in which the magical effect is created;
f) the reputation of the caster;
g) law enforcement's familiarity with the spell signature;
h) the determination of existing enemies with resources such as to catch it (not necessarily themselves!) and to act on that catching;
i) the caster's connections.

As one example, the assassin PC I mentioned leads a double life. In one life, he's a respected citizen, independent business owner (magical security), and registered mage. In the other, he commands upwards of 1 M :nuyen: for specialised hits. (These aren't your usual hit and runs.)

As with the vast majority of my Awakened PCs, he chose masking first (pregame in fact, the one and only time I have ever initiated pregame), and is more than a bit anal about erasing his magic signature each and every time ... except once.

His signature is probably registered with the university from which he obtained his magical credentials (MIT&T), and possibly with the Boston police. He hires a couple of students to set wards and conjure Force 2 air elementals to protect gated communities - let their magic signatures be the ones always floating around. Once, deliberately, he broke his own rule: cast an "illegal" healing spell to mend a boy's broken arm. Do you think anyone from this upstanding community he has so carefully cultivated would turn him in?

Edit:

[TinkerGnome]

[Talia Invierno]

And magical security exists precisely to keep your kind out ;)

[Darkest Angel]

You can do plenty with mundane security to keep mages in check, afterall, they usually lack the technical and physical skills the mundanes are using to sneak about. Basic security like laser trips and pressure pads can only be worked around with magic if you spot them. Since IMG mages spend much of their time on the job in perception, to keep an eye out for watchers/elementals and to ensure their foci and spells dont trip wards, such mundane security might not be spotted by the mage despite his usually high intelligence. Even if he does spot it, or it's pointed out by another team member, he probably hasn't high enough athletics, stealth or quickness to avoid triggering the device anyway - in which case he'll use a spell to get around it, or force the tech wiz in the team to deactivate the sensor, both of these cost time, the former in cleaning up his astral signiture, the latter in deactivating it, something with it's own inherent risks.

Things like that force the character to spend his karma on skills, and prevent him being the focus of the group - not to mention giving the rest of the group something to mock "ooh the big bad mage couldn't get past a crappy little pressure pad..."

Astral security can on the other hand be used to prevent mundane infiltration, so it's worth remembering that most mages are hired for astral protection for the rest of the group, they're there to look out for watchers and elementals, and provide spell defence, spell defence being the big equaliser in cutting down a Mage's Sorcery dice that make his magic so potent. Make sure the mage knows that, and use astral security measures in combination with mundane security - just because magic and technology don't generally get on too well normally, doesn't mean that having a pressure pad on the floor behind the door means the doorway can't have a ward across it.

So far as quickened spells go, the argument has been made, you have to be a high grade initiate to be able to hide the big ones, and since you're supposed to be helping the group hide from magical security, the rest of the team wont appreciate it when you give them away. The exception I suppose is increased reflexes, but most people house rule that, and those that don't don't have a problem with the spell in the first place.

[ShadowGhost]

Another thing about permits.... Just because you have a permit for Seattle, it doesn't mean that same permit is good for Vancouver, Boston, Japan, et all; just as a carry permit for a handgun in Florida doesn't mean shit in L.A.

And who says permits have to have the same availability from region to region, or even be available in some regions?

As a mage, do you *really* want all your spells listed and registered, where a decent decker can hack in and download them, and sell them to your enemies who can then custom tailor an attack designed to render your mage useless?

Do you really want that info to be passed along from gov't to gov't? Who knows, you might just step off a plane in Japan (or other area) and immediately be arrested just for knowing those spells (never mind actually using them), all thanks to some idiot clerk who accidently emailed your file worldwide.

[ShadowGhost]

Oh, and easy ways to screw up mages: an NPC character with high willpower, body and intelligence, has Magic Resistance 4 (meaning your invisibility spells are now 8's to affect him), with spell defence and shielding dice (which also add to the target number for spells to be effective against the shielded target).

The poor mage can throw anything they want at the NPC, and be as effective as a flyswatter against a troll.

[Sphynx]

Sure, but going to your local Japan Consulate before you leave to gain a temporary permit isn't a problem. You guy should try playing someone who actually tries to abide by the law, it makes running alot easier I think. :P

Do I mind if anyone in the world knows my spells? Not at all. Do I care if the custom tailor an attack purely for my character? Heh, I think they all do that anyhows, just based on the GM's knowledge... :P but actually, I'd be honored. I would just try to be crafty enough to not fall into a trap made for me.

What you're failing to mention though, is that the same rules apply to such things as Cyberware. Which is better? Legally entering a country with temporary permits (after all, since you can't be expected to forget spells, a temporary visa should cover your legalities), and being kept under a watchful eye, or entering a country illegally with a bunch of cyberware you have assigned to a fake SIN which happens to fail the resistance check in another country. You think they'll just deport you back? :P I'll stick to legal anyday, get my task done and try to be gone before fingers can be pointed.

Sphynx

[Sunday_Gamer]

Couple things.

On deliberate masking, I was of course, mistaken and it is in fact possible to you to extend it above and beyond the scope of your grade. However, based on it's status as an exclusive action and the actual rules for it, which aren't particularly kind. Roll your grade in dice vs the total force and every 2 successes reduces their successes by 1. Can get you by a tight spot, but still not a viable thing to be doing anytime you're in public.

Sphynx, there are exceptions to every rule. The entire thrust of this game is the illegal life, that's the whole point of shadowrun.

I urge you again to take a look at the permit rules. Now take a look at everything a guy needs to GET a permit, including a valid reason to have it in the first place. They are HIGHLY counter culture to shadowrunning. Basically you're saying "You can have a permit for your spells, you just need to not be a shadowrunner." You need:

a valid SIN.
proof of employment.
A valid reason for having it.

Then there are the rolls, which aren't really hard. However, if you've fulfilled the above criteria, you're not really a shadowrunner are you?

So yes, if your PCs all stop being Shadowrunners then yes, they can get permits (after they get jobs and a reason and blah blah blah).

I'm unfortunately playing in and running a shadowrun game, in which my players are called upon to run the shadows, and all the happy illegal activities that go with it. Permits are NOT an option.

Also, please note that ANY permit, covers possession and transport. Anytime you use the stuff (i.e. shoot someone with a registered firearm) you are going to be involved in a police investigation, to ensure it was self defense, it WAS self defense right? Course this assumes someone gives a crap that person is dead, nonetheless, you get the point.

So again, yes, if you wish to jump through all the hoops, become a corporate employee and register all your spells, provide a valid reason and your signature and essentially give up your ability to be a shadowrunner, then YES, you can have all those permits.

Giving up shadowrunning is not an option for me or anyone I know, we're shadowrunners, it's WHAT WE DO!!

Sunday.

PS: Adarael, it's anything wth force 3 OR higher. 2 is the highest you can get leaglly and this does NOT cover combat spells which are just plain illegal.

[Sphynx]