Right, enough of this sustained spell nonsense... Options

[Derek]

[Polaris]

Derek,

You are right; I don't give a flying piece of fecal matter what you think. However, english is still english.

When you say a fraction of X are A or B, or C, this is grammaric shorthand for saying:

A fraction of X are A

OR

A fraction of X are B

OR

A fraction of X are C.

Thus your 1:10 intepretation is right in line with what is written. Thus Cain is simply wrong....as he was on other rules points earlier (vis a vis selling back spell points at character creation) and again I am simply calling him on it; no more.

-Polaris

[Derek]

Err, no.

But please continue to misinterpret it to your benefit in an argument

Derek

[Polaris]

Derek,

Go ahead and ask Fan-Pro, but any person with a magic attribute at all is vanishingly rare, and full magicians are rarer still. I am reading the english correctly.....but please go ahead and ask Fan Pro is you doubt me.

Even if half the people with magic were full mages or shamans (a point I am not willing to conceed), my argument is still very valid. You have 1.5 million (with this assumption) over the entire UCAS. Of that, you have to account for magical talismongers, researchers, apprenti, other professionals...ect ect. The fact is that most "wage mages" will not be suited for security work either as runners or as corp security or as police (not to mention the fact that even with bonuses, most security and police corps will not be able to pay what a mage could demand on the open market).

In short, my numbers are if anything generous....and that is the problem. In my experience about half the PCs in shadowrun are awakened in one form or another, and a good third are full mages or shamans. You are silly not to be in this system. However, because such people are so rare in the world, they run roughshod over things that would leave street sams in the dust.

-Polaris

[The White Dwarf]

So far all Ive seen far as broken mages is that some spells can make a mage an uber tank. I suppose that might be a relative problem, because in our games its common place to see sams in armors from 6/4 to 8/8 out of the box, with bodys of 6 to 12 if not more (the values here depend on what the sam is doing besides sam-ing). So for us, it seems best case the mage is almost as good as the sam, but uses magic instead of cyber to do it. Imo thats nbd, its just a new twist on how to accomplish an old idea.

I still have yet to see anything that is really broken. I think its been settled that legality isnt a huge issue although is something that does need to be taken into consideration. Its also been pointed out that most one trick ponys can be delt with in some way. The actual fraction of the populace thats magical is irrelevent to a game breaking example, at least insofar as the example itself (more magic makes it easier to cope with I suppose but theres always a way to down someone, nbd).

Its really not that unbalanced at all. Its hard for a mage to buff any stat above 4 reliable, and by at most 6, meaning their attributes are probably going to cap out around 10 as a ballpark figure, which isnt too high compared to other methods of raising them. Armor at best gets them to street sam levels, nothing really broken. Same with initiative. Levitate can be used to circumvent several security measures and perhaps help with hearing based stealth (since they dont have footfalls) but again, this is largly just a magician version of adept powers. Invis is perhaps the best spell for the "bonus" it gives you, but really without having invis many runs become a nightmare to realistically pull off (as in the GM doesnt pull punches) so Id consider it good but in a way not outside the system.

I dont mean to keep shooting everyone down, but really I cant think of an example that is so powerful to be problematic, and the ones listed so far, while effective, arent really any more so than other ways of doing things.

Perhaps at very high karma levels things might change. As Polaris pointed out you could look at karma-sink as unlimited-potential, but when you hit that stage of development youve probably moved into the appropriate circles of game-plot (like dealing with the big boys, international jobs, hitting triple-a hqs, etc) to where the opposition is going to be in the same boat. So if there is an example of such a case, it needs to be relative to appropriatly scaled opposition.

Just my thoughts on the thread so far.

[Sphynx]

Exactly. :P

Sphynx

[Polaris]

Guys,

Out of the box the Mage is not broken. White Dwarf is quite right when he points out that a Mage gets his uber-tank stats with magic rather than a Sam getting them with 'ware. However, even then the Mage has the edge that the magic will in general cost far less than the 'ware. At char-gen this is not a big deal since a full mage will have to take very high priorities in resources to take advantage of this (and Sams can put A into resources while Mages can not). It becomes more problematic with human mages in point buy since a human mage can effectively buy both A in Magic and Resources.

The problem really lies in the fact that a Mage has unlimited potential from improvement after character generation while a Sam (or any other Mundane for that matter) really does not. A Street Sam will generally start out with his important stats at or near the absolute maximum (a cinch with bioware) which means that he only means of improvement is:

A. Upgrading 'Ware.

B. Improving Skills.

The problem with 'A' is that the body only has so much essense and thus there is a hard limit to how much 'ware you can buy even if you assume Delta Grade.

The problem with 'B' is that you get a geometrically increasing cost for skills while the increase in effectiveness is really logrithimic. In short, high skill levels blow for the karma you spend on them.

None of that applies to the mage (or shaman). The mage or shaman can spend is 200th karma point just as efficiently as his first and that means his power level quickly becomes broken.

Finally as for the argument that mages can not boost their stats much above four or so, this is wrong. You have two mages in the party...call them Bob and Fred. Bob and Fred both know the Decrease Attribute spell for Will-Power, Charisma, Intelligence and any other attribute they want to boost. They of course both know the increase attribute spell for all of these. In addition both know the quickening metamagic technique.

None of this is unreasonable for experienced mages of 50-150 earned karma. OK, lets assume Bob and Fred both have Willpower scores of 7 (natural) which is perfectly reasonable for any solid mage. Assume also that neither has any cyber (which is fairly normal). Bob casts decrease Willpower on Fred at force 5 and does it until he drains the stat by five. He now sustains the spell. Fred now casts increase Willpower at force 7 with a sorcery (spellcasting) skill of 8 with an expendible healing focus, and with a spell pool of 6 (i.e. 20 dice). His target numbers are two (because of the decrease willpower spell). Naturally, he gets more than 14 successes and so gains +7 Willpower. Bob now stops sustaining his Decrease Willpower spell. Fred now has a quickened Willpower of 14 with an effective force of 14 (vs Dispelling and Disruption). Now Fred and Bob switch places.

Rinse, Lather, and Repeat for all high stats.

Conclusion: With relatively little Karma, a Mage's stats can be boosted to 15, 20 or even more.....even stats that can not be boosted by 'Ware. This is a huge advantage to the mage.

-Polaris

[Sphynx]

Ok, first half of the post is irrelevant Pol, everyone knows that the advancement cap for mages is endless, that3s a nice discussion in another thread actually.

2nd half is an attempt to show the unbalance. You've shown that for a base price of 12+ karma (initiation with group) and an additional 12+ karma (Force 6 Quickened) you can start taking your attributes up to 12 each, rather easily. You should have left out the decrease attribute stuff though, any GM worth his salt won't allow that, we personally only 'negate' effects with a stacked increased, meaning that once the decrease was gone, the increased was as well, quickened or not. We also House Rule that any stat increase which is a TN for a sustained spell causes the sustained spell to dissipate, which is why my +3D6 character won't touch his Int, Qui, or Reaction via spells or karma. You can still do the +6 via 12 Force of Exp Foci and 3 Karma Pool though, quite easily, so this isn't a reply to deny it's possible to get an additional 6+ to a stat.

Anyhows, the suggestion is that the minimal of 24 Karma to get +6 to a stat is unbalancing. I agree with you in that it's FAR too cheap, would be impressive to hear anyone deny that fact. I am all for House Ruling some limitations (such as our own House Rules) that make the 12 karma a possible waste (needing to re-quicken later). The inherent weakness is that the Quicken is NOT a true attribute advancement, it can go away, which is not the case of Bio or Cyberware. If you're ever given a reason, as a GM to reduce the successes, or negate the spell, take it, just be careful since karma quickening IS expensive if you find you keep having to do it. Good times are the same times you'd test for Magic loss. Not to mention that anything lower than Force 6 (12 Karma Quickened) is easy to take down by at least a notch with a simple spirit attack, or any other form of astral attack on the spell, including Wards.

There are a million and one reasons why spending the Karma to just advance the attribute, or spending the Essence to improve it is worth it, such as skill advancement which relies on Natural stats. Magically Boosted stats don't make the skills cheaper. 1 success against the spell reduces the successes by 1, and even with a TN of 12, that's a very possible roll, though it'll most likely happen when you, as the GM, don't intend for it to happen. 1 success is often enough to reduce your successes enough to give you a -1 to your attribute.

I don't think it's unbalancing at all, it's why I make it a point to only do these spells at Force 6. If you want to prevent it from happening, as a GM make the spell formula for a Force 6 unavailable, or at least unavailable in Fetish format (making it a real pain to learn the spell). IF they learn it at char gen, well, they start out alot weaker in order to be more powerful later. Anything less than Force 6 and they'll be recasting it often enough that it won't be the big unbalancing factor mentioned.

My GM told me he'd only allow one attribute formula to be found as learnable at Force 6, and won't let me find it with a Fetish. I'm waiting for things to slow down enough to take the months to learn it, until then, my Improved Willpower spell formula is -still- sitting on a shelf in my lodge as I go about learning other Force 3's and 5's in days. :P

Sphynx

[Talia Invierno]

I was wondering how long it would take to bring out the words "right" and "wrong" in this thread.

As Sphynx mentions, endless advancement cap for magicians has already been covered. Infinite advancement cap for everyone, actually: only magicians have more possibilities because of their access to unique skills, and dwarves and elves potentially because of their longer lifespans (but isn't the average expected lifespan of a shadowrunner in the range of 5 years anyway?). Doesn't apply in any case unless either the campaign is of infinite length (and how many do you know that have gone beyond five game years?) or the amount of karma given out within a given time frame is unusually high. (For some point of comparison with other groups, see Running and Rewards. The Virtual Seattle assumption is one run per month, which gives an approximate maximum of 120 karma a game year.)

To assume percentages of Awakened in general population reflect percentages either in corporations or in shadowrunning groups would probably be inaccurate. Both corporations and shadowrunning teams tend to concentrate the Awakened to begin with - and the Awakened (corps: being more valuable; teams: being less "expendable" than the hoards of wannabe street samurai) are far more likely not to be placed on the front lines, and thus to concentrate further through social Darwinism. The teams with magic support of some kind will generally tend to have better overall survivability than other teams, further increasing the local percentage. However, the teams that will generally tend to have the highest overall survivability will be those that cover all the bases. (Ain't no one who can compete with a highly skilled rigger's Control Pool.)

I think a sidestep into set theory is less than relevant at this point ;)

[The White Dwarf]

Im inclined to say that while mages do have a perhaps broader unlimited potential, due to more options to buy with karma, sams can go quite far as well. Having a wider array of skills, and spending cash to get access to better grade implants, will keep both characters quite busy up into the 250+ karma range. Once you start getting near 300 (at least in my experience) you finally start running into some dead ends as a sam, so you might not see a difference until 350, 400+ karma. A problem, but not one that will affect most groups for the majority of the time (unless you play a lot with characters that high).

I do not think that spell example works, because there are many sustained spells where you have to record the number of successes in case the conditions change. One example is an illusion spell such as chaotic world, where you need to know what you rolled because people with varying intelligences might come into or out of the area of effect, changing the spell tns. It seems to me that this should probably fall into the same category, with the spell tn changing as the willpower does, because as you mention it seems rather powerful. However, there isnt really anything to say otherwise besides noting similar game mechanics elsewhere. So, this could be the first example of something overpowering. Youre assumed numbers are fair, which would basically give mages that have played a few games access to willpower 13+. Now you can start with willpowers of at least 9 or 10 if you want, so its not too over the top, but having extra drain dice on hand, as well as being virtually immune to willpower/mana based spells, is rather nice for a magician.

Which means that, assuming this is valid (and besides several gm-call-like reasons I cant find out why it isnt, according to the rules) mages could buff their stats (or anyones really) by basically 6 more, at the expense of having a pair of spells at force 6 and spending karma/cash for a sustaining focus or quickening. So now the question Im asking about this particular instance is, does the investment of two spells and a focus/metamagic balance off the bonus? Figure its 18 karma per attribute for the three things, certainly cheaper than just raising it, but still a few runs of karma the mage is out. Buffing his attributes might not be as effective as initiating or something, which means that you wont see this being a problem until you hit the very high karma levels, when it might start being a problem anyhow. Thoughts?

[BitBasher]

I have never met a GM in my life that would allow the decrease attribute spell in such a way. Once an attribute changes then previous sucesses based on that attrinute are no longer valid. If somoene anchored an increase quickness spell I would require them to write down the sucesses on the spell so that if the attribute was raised or lowered later that we could easily recalculate the spell's effect.

Honestly, if I had a player come to me and ask to do this I would have a long talk with them and suggest they might be happier in a different game.

I would also like to say that I do not think a mental attribute of 7 is "Reasoable for a solid mage" as no attribute over racial maximum I consider reasonable excepting magic, cyberware or bioware. I would consider it reasonable to have a 7 if they spend the time and 21 karma needed to raise it to that level, which represents 14-42% of the example listed 50-150 karma, or about 4 game sessions, if not more.

[Polaris]

Bitbasher,

There is nothing in the rulebook either stated or implied (yes I checked rather thoruoughly) that says that you lose successes on a sustained attribute increase spell if that attribute changes. Certainly if your attribute was boosted by three....say a body of 6(9) and you spent karma to raise that body to 7, then your new attribute would be 7(10). This is identical to the way cyberware works, and it should be no different here.

Furthermore, it is reasonble for a starting mage to have a Willpower of 7. In fact (without 'ware mind you) a starting mage can have a starting Willpower of 9 *without* magical increases.

Race: Dwarf
Edge: Bonus Attribute Point +1 Willpower
Other: Albino

This costs you 6 attribute points (for the 6 Willpower base), Dwarf gives a +1, Albino gives an other +1, and Bonus Attribute gives one more.

Thus my number was if anything low.

In short, my example does work by the book and should be accounted for in the game balance discussion.

-Polaris

[The White Dwarf]

Yes, Polaris is correct on the willpower values, which is why I say his numbers are both fair and valid. I would have used force 6 spells because they can be obtained at starting, thus cutting down the amount of karma a runner needs to earn, but using a willpower of 7+7 is the same as 8+6 so its well within the ballpark.

The spell example is what concerns me. While it seems that bitbasher and I are of the same initial opinion regarding the changing tns, Ill freely admit thats my "at a glance" interpretation of it, because the alternative does indeed seem a bit out of whack.

Its interesting to note that some other games limit one attribute from being both buffed and debuffed at the same time. The stronger of the two effects, or the net result apply. Such theory would mean that either only the net increase would apply as dropping the sustained spell also drops the boost, or that its simply impossible to cast both on the same target at once. However, thats in other games and not in shadowrun, without a faq ruling to that effect.

So I repeat, does anyone have/know of a counter to this. And if not, is being able to buff attributes really that breaking to game balance, considereing the levels already obtainable through other means and the limited effect attributes have on actual game mechanics (meaning that you use skills more often than attributes, which are more of a limit to things, with the exception of resisting things; again when you can get body 20 without magic is body 15 or 25 with magic really an issue, etc?

[BitBasher]

[IcyCool]

[Derek]

[The White Dwarf]

Guts, if they fail the perception test they just fail to notice the clothing is armored, thats all. And the point of this thread was to show that sustaining spells is broken, hence the example of something thats broken. And yes, willpower 7 is reasonable any dwarf with 6 points in willpower has 7. Its within the normal range for them, without using anything like edges or spells or cheating; totally normal.

So, please stop posting about number crunching whatevers and how anything extreme is out of line. The question here is "does something that extreme, regardless of what you think of it, actaully imbalance the game?" And Im rather inclined to say no, not really, in consideration of what else you could do were you to try; at least in the lower stages of the game. I imagine that later on things could change on that front tho, once they get some karma to spare.

The worst thing Ive been able to come up with is boosting the intelligence of a decker, or the willpower of a sorcerer in the manner described; the result of which gets you to say 15ish (would take a reasonably powerful mage, call it force 8 spells with 16 successes, probably a good higher end figure only because it gets hard to get more successes compared to higher force). Which is basically giving the magician or decker more pool (hacking or spell), especially the magician because they wouldnt need to use as much or any pool on drain. But really, how imbalancing is having 4 or 5 (again my guess for pool saved) more pool? If the mage is running Improved Reflexes 3 spell in a focus (again not too out of line) thats like 1 or 2 more dice a turn... better yes but probably more eye candy than game effect. Having never run such a character in game thats my thoughts from the written version. Ideas?

[Sunday_Gamer]

Actually Dwarf ol chum, as the author of the thread, I feel well qualified to state what it's point was and that is:

Sustained spells are very powerful but there are limitations and legal repercussions attached.

So actually it was that sustained spells are NOT too powerful, unless you completely ignore the laws and other limitations at which point and time, well, it's your own fault, deal with it.

Sort of.

But White's points still stand, this isn't about armor concealability, that's for certain.

Sunday.

[The White Dwarf]

Well yea, initially, but the topic wandered a bit; perhaps I should say the current topic rather than the threads topic =)

[Cain]

Re: Wards-- according to the BBB, most magical security firms charge around 100 nuyen an hour to set up wards. That means reasonably high-force wards are within the budgets of most mom-and-pop businesses. As always, YMMV, but there's no reason why wards shouldn't be fairly common.

Re: mages-- Derek and others have hit my point. A fraction of all Awakened are aspected and/or untrained and/or insane. We'll even use the Dictionary.com definition:

[Sphynx]

Reasons to NOT Quicken (since that's the main Sustaining Spell problem)

1) Astral Quests. Go into a plane where Force 1 Watchers walk about with Force 12 Elementals on leashes and your Force 1 spell assenses as 12 times more powerful than that 12 Karma spell (Everything is reverse). GM's have full control when you enter the MetaPlanes and you could easily come out with no Quickens if you play with a GM who doesn't like them.

2) Social Interactions. Force 5 Wards are actually common, at least in our games. It's not the first time I'd be pushed back out the door of a fancy restaurant for "safety" reasons.

3) Weakening. All it takes is 1 success more than you in Astral Combat to weaken a Quicken. Force 9 Ward (If you're going to do a Force 6, might as well just go for Force 9 as a Corp) against a 12 Karma Quickening has a 5+% chance of dropping that success total by one. Anything shy of 12 Karma and that chance just doubled and tripled. So, how often do you have to walk through Wards? Even a Force 5 Ward vs a 12 Karma Quicken has a 2.512158% chance of dropping your successes by one.

4) Respending. Once the spell weakens, how long do you wait to re-cast/Quicken? is +3 enough for you now? +2? :P

5a) Advancement. If you're so busy spending all your Karma on Quickening, especially for those having to consistently re-spend due to lost successes, you're just staying at your level, not getting better.

5b) Uselessness. For those too paranoid to go through Wards, what use are you now?

6) Background Count. How many spells do you think you can have at 12 Karma Quickened before you are a permanent Background Count type, and how do other Mages feel about that? That's my problem right now. My Lodge has a BG of 3, and anywhere I do more than pass-by has a BG of 1. I already have a +3 to Quicken more spells on me (since I only do that in my Lodge) unless I either learn Cleansing or a mate Cleanses my lodge for me.... (and that just sounds wrong....)

7) Mana Warps. So you've got your 6 attributes, Reaction and Reflexes all Quickened with 12 Karma each for a total of 96 Karma worth of Improvement.... a GM is well within his rights to decide that causing that big of a vortex to fuel those spells creates a Mana Warp with you in the center.

Notice, none of the more common "beacon" or "legal" theories needed here, there are a TON of reasons not to Quicken instead of just advancing like everyone else. I do it, in-character, because I actually want to see some of these things happen, but I don't fool myself into thinking they'll be pleasurable, I just wanna go out with a bit of a Bang and be in the history books. :P

Sphynx

[Polaris]

Sphynx,

What you say it generally true, but that is not enough to balance out Sustaining/Quickened spells. In short, I will play Paul Harvey, and I will tell you the rest of the story:

[Sphynx]

Well, to counter your counters... :P

Where do you see that Astral Quests don't allow a GM to dispel your Quickens? Older Ed's perhaps? Meta activities effect your person, which is why you can die from a Meta quest. Show me some quotes here, not opinion. :P

If wards were so rare, why is it at a cheap 100 :nuyen: a Force (Hour)? Even without someone there who knows to turn you back, Wards over places of businesses are quite common according to that price. And it's common knowledge that public places have a right to ward their establishment under the same rulings that allow a corp to have their own military. There's no threat of legal infringements at all.

Tattoos: http://hypertextbook.com/facts/2001/IgorFridman.shtml
Didja know that you could have about 5 Force 6 Spells Tattoo'd? :P Trolls, twice that. Suddenly Tattooing seems like the be-all, end-all of Quickening. ;) Aside from Tattooing though, point stands.

Successes, me too. :P But, -most- players will be doing those TN 6 spells with about enough dice to get those 8 successes for the +4, nothing more. And those of us that go excessive, well, eventually we'll drop our needed successes by one, just takes longer. The point remains that it's still only temporary and any GM can easily start putting multiple Force 9 Wards in areas to insure we do eventually start losing Quickens.

Background Count, by-the-book: Sorcery or prolonged magical activities, including ritual sorcery and extremely high force spells. A GM is WELL within his rights to state an increse in BG count anywhere the character with THAT much magic Quickened stays.

ManaWarp: Admittedly GM discretion, but a more viable option than worrying about legalities.

GM screwing over the mage... That was kinda the idea of this thread, What can a GM do? These are options. I agree that they screw over the mage, but they're all book-legal ways to do just that.

Sphynx

[Polaris]

Sphynx,

1. The normal rules don't apply to Astral Quests. The rules do not state that going on an astral quest dispells your quicked spells. It does say that for each individual test and metaplace, various things (including foci and quickened spells) may not be available, but that is a far cry from what you are claiming. In fact the rules about injuries seem to be an exception to this which is why it is specifically mentioned.

Besides, all this means is that the mage doesn't do astral quests if you want to play it that way. Quests are nice not essential. In short, you are reading WAAAY too much and trying to do too much that is not supported anywhere in the book. It is a good way to get players to quit your table for good.

As an example, I note on page 93 MITS under "Place of Battle" that all spells, foci, etc work normally including astral projection (even though you are already projecting just to be there). This should tell you that an astral quest does not disrupt quickened spells and that the normal rules don't apply.

2. As for Force 9 wards both you and Cain are being misleading. It is true that Wards cost 100 nuyen per hour.

Now for the rest of the story:

They cost 100 nuyen per force per hour. That means that a ward of force 6 will cost 600 nuyen per hour and a rectangular room will need 6 of these for a whopping 3600 nuyen per hour. No one short of a megacorp can afford this. High priced lawyers make less money per hour than this.

In addition, did you and Cain forget that you can not set up a ward that has a higher rating than your magic rating. Initiates are vanishingly rare and most mages will have at least a datajack. That means the highest commercially available ward will be force 5 (not nine) and for extra you can get force 6. That is the ceiling unless you really pay through the snout for initiate grade help. A quickened spell at effective force 14 (I would not do 12) will cut through commercial wards like butter.

In addition to that have you forgotten masking? Admittedly this only applies to very high karma mages, but after a mage gets to grade 6 or more initiate, he can probably walk through most wards with the greatest of ease WITHOUT tripping the ward (especially with the karma pool he will be sporting).

In short, wards are both expensive and generally ineffective.

3. The GM may be within his rights to declare an increase in background count, but that is really stretching things since force 6 (or even force 8 ) spells are not that high a force. Furthermore cleansing and filtering (a point you did not address) solve these problems handily.

4. Actually they are not really book-legal. Of these, background count is the closest, but even that is subject to a lot of discretion. Having said that, I think we agree that legality is definately not the answer...and that was the original supposition of this thread.

-Polaris

[Sphynx]

Man, I'm dejavuing my old Doc vs Sphynx debates now. :P

Ok... I never claimed that going on an Astral Quest would dispel a Quicken, I stated that the GM could use the going on an Astral Quest to do that. Once you enter the MetaPlanes, you ARE at the GM's mercies.

A Magic 6 person can Ward an area up to 300 cubic meters to Force 6 in 6 to 12 hours (though I COMPLETELY agree that Force 5 is a TON more common, and often indicate so in my posts, only major Corps should exceed Force 5). 300 Cubic meters is plenty enough for one building. Total cost to put your average club/restaurant/etc in a ward, 600 :nuyen: total. Chump change.

Sphynx