Right, enough of this sustained spell nonsense... Options

[Polaris]

Sphynx,

Unless the rulebook says that it does dispell (or at least can), then it doesn't. I agree with you that during the Astral Quest you are completely at the GM's mercy (which is why Astral Quests are so risky), but that does not carry over into the standard world (except damage which is the clear exception).

A force 6 ward can only ward 300 cubic meters. Enough for a restaurant? I don't think so. 300 cubic meters is a cube with the cube-root of 300 per side which is something less than 7 meters per side (about 6.8 actually). To put it another way, if you assume that the ceiling of a one floor building is 3 meters, that means that the most you can ward in floor-space is 10 meters (or about 33 feet) per side.

That is nowhere NEAR enough space for any reasonably sized establishment. In addition to *that* wards have to be delinated by some kind of mundane and seeable boundaries (although even chalk lines will do). Thus you will need at least 4-5 wards to cover a building of any reasonable size...and now you are looking at costs of 3000 nuyen per hour.

Chump change? For a megacorp sure. For anyone else, that is far too pricey for the extra security that you bring.

Even worse than that, wards are dumb. I seriously doubt that *any* public place would have any ward. There are a lot of people....even mundane people...that have magically active items....and legal magically active items are force 2 or less. There is no way just from liability reasons why anyone would ward a public place. That just won't happen.

In short, wards for most people and businesses are too expensive, too ineffective, and too problematic legally to use, so they won't. Shadowrunners of course aren't bothered by any of these....and admittedly neither are A,AA, or AAA high security areas. This does, however, mean that for lower echelon runs (even against A+ corps) wards should seldom be an issue.

-Polaris

[Sphynx]

Freaking Americans and their huge ass areas. :P

First up, for an establishment costing (by-the-book) 100,000. 3,600 for security isn't all that. :P Though, where I live, no restaurant takes up 700 square meters (1,800/2.3), but I live in what I consider to be 3rd worldish country anyhows, so point made. ;) I'd not consider it to be an outrageous cost though. And a Force 5 would only cost 3,000 for the same area. And cost is TOTAL, not per hour. The cost is always 100 per hour, it just takes Force*Wards number of hours to build them.

Sphynx

[hobgoblin]

and why ward the ewntire building? just ward thesensitive areas so that when the mage is deep and think he is home free you slam him with a ward and then a APC load of guards or so :) its incredible how careless one can get ones one think one is a god :vegm:

[TinkerGnome]

Your average business is going to want to have their establishment warded for approximately one month at a time. You would probably want two mages (or one mage doing a double ritual) to create a force 5 ward, and then maintain it every month, so you're looking at an outlay of 1000 karma (possibly an extra mage or two for a true "monitoring contract" type service where one is always on duty). Compare that to what it's costing the business to occupy that location (Sprawl Survival Guide is a good candidate). If it's less than 10%, I'd say they have one. If not, it's probably something weaker.

A lot of businesses might go with a cheaper option. A simple force 1 ward will let someone know what's going on and could be as cheap as 100 nuyen a month (probably 300 nuyen for three months, using three mages to do the work so you have 3 mages who can sound the alarm if it gets breached).

Just about anyone with a magic rating (excluding physical adepts) can make a ward, so it's the majority of the magical population. Even ghouls could do the work, if they were so inclined (I think).

[edit]And just because force 2 spells/foci are legal doesn't mean you are entitled to carry them into a restaurant. Look at the way handguns are treated in the US today. Even then, you could get around it by having a small, unwarded passthrough into the establishment proper where the item can be looked over as it comes past. You'd probably have to show your permits first, though (SIN verification).[/edit]

[Talia Invierno]

[Cain]

First of all, Polaris is wrong on the costs. According to p 174, BBB: "[Magical Security firms] generally charge around 100 nuyen an hout (per magician)." That's a flat cost, and not modified up by the force of the ward. Higher-force wards do take more time, but it's Force = Hours = cost/100; and not Force * 100 *hours = cost.

Second, while a whole establishment might easily exceed 250-300 cubic meters, individual rooms seldom do. At 200 nuyen per force-2 ward, most businesses can easily afford to have one set up in every room, and still afford a higher-powered one around the more secure areas.

Third, who said most mages will have a datajack? Cheching through the archetypes, and the Prime Runner sources I know, most mages are "off the showroom floor", so to speak. Even then, a rating-1 power focus or a geas can easily counteract that loss, so assuming most mages will have a Magic of 6 isn't far off.

So, let's say a place has about 400 square meters of floor space, more than enough to cover a reasonable-sized establishment. To set up a rating-2 ward over that area might require 4 wards, at 200 nuyen each, for a total cost of 800 nuyen. These wards will probably last for over a month each, so we'll assume the cost is per month. Still not out of reach for a Mom-and-Pop business. Bigger corps, with more security needs, will likely have more than that.

A simple sign on the front door indicating that magical items need to be deactivated will cover them from any liability of legal magical items being passed through. And even then, as TG pointed out, legal!= acceptable. I can legally carry and own a handgun, but I can't bring it into a courthouse; and restaurants and such may also ask patrons to check their weaponry at the door.

[Polaris]

Guys,

UM, no. Legal does in fact generally equate to acceptable, especially when you factor in achored items like heal potions or other minor personal effects. The example with the pistol is way off. A pistol in shadowrun terms is not legal. It has a legality code with a "P" in it. That means that you do not have an inherent right to wear it with no questions asked.

Something with a code of "legal" is different, and especially if said item does not threaten anyway (like the aforementioned magical nick-nacks). Even with a posted notice, there is simply no way that an establishment will risk the multinuyen lawsuit over wards. It simply WILL NOT HAPPEN. Don't take my word....ask any small business owner or liability attorney.

As for your costs, why do you think the ward will last a month? A force 6 ward made with a mage with magic six will last a week....two if you are lucky. Anything much less than force 5 or 6 (standard commercial grade) are simply too weak to be effective. This jacks your cost way up. 800 nuyen a month? No small business can afford that...especially with high rental costs (in a city) too. No small business could afford the liability insurance for it either (see above).

-Polaris

[Kanada Ten]

Polaris,
Smoking is legal and not acceptable in public places.
Wearing a tee-shirt that says "Hackers rule!" can get you kicked out of public places, though that too is legal.

And stop saying "Guys" every post; you sound like a patronizing chauvinist.

[Polaris]

Kanada,

I will use "guys" to be the general plural because over the centuries english has neutered the male pronoun and male gender in general. Get over it.

There is a difference between smoking which is socially unacceptable and a health hazard (and is probably restricted in SR although admittedly the rules do not say this), wearing a crass shirt, and magical items.

1. Social Acceptability. There are many magical items that are not only socially acceptable in polite society, but are actually de rigeur. Healing potions (with the anchor focus) are such an example. So are items like "Executive Protection" which many high rollers and corp/govt VIPs wear as a matter of course (see MITS page 71). In fact with Executive Protection, there is NO WAY the client will ever want that turned off.

Also there is a difference between tossing a person out and willfully destroying their property....their legal property. Tossing out a smoker or someone with a crass shirt is one thing....although very risky from a liability PoV. If you had some field that *destroyed* that cigarette or that crass T-Shirt, you are subject to a very hefty lawsuit and you will lose. There is no way even a megacorp will take that risk without good reason, and a small business absolutely will not.

2. Use Restrictions. The fact is most people that would be affected by wards are *mundanes* that happen to have spells on them either via quickening by a hired mage or by an item with the anchoring focus. Either way, said person can NOT turn the thing off. Turning away a VP of Federated Boeing at a five-star restaurant because he is wearing "Executive Protection" and can not turn it off is a REALLY BAD idea....

-Polaris

[IcyCool]

[Kanada Ten]

[The White Dwarf]

People drop with the personal attacks, it does nothing for the discussion just creates tension.

Im just going to point out there are TWO kinds of wards which might be causing some confusion. The temporary kind you can make without using karma, and the more permanent kind you can make with karma.

The relative costs, forces, and durations of those two are different enough to present problems. If youre going to present that one or the other is possible or practical, you might want to specify which youre talking about.

Also if youre going to say xyz is affordable or not, or is legal or not, its all opinion without some facts. I have no idea what renting space in a city costs, or what the average mom and pop business makes in 2063. I have no idea if anyone cares about legality when extraterritoriality abounds. Both these areas are rather undefined in SR, which leaves us to extrapolate from current times into the game, but which also leaves a lot of room for opinon along the way.

Im not going to make a claim either way, Ive found what I wanted to know from this thread and already know how I use wards so trying to decide here is pointless for me. But if you want to try and make a case to change our minds please use something other than saying yes or no, perhaps running some numbers from SSG or a link to some RL figures or something. Maybe someone in the Seattle area can provide current values there?

[Polaris]

Guys,

Almost all visible cyberware is either illegal or requires a permit. Check it out if you doubt. This is different from having perfectly legal and acceptable items on hand.

Also, it was stated that the security mage could simply check in the items? Sure, but now you have to hire the mage during business hours and the hourly rate for a good mage is rivaled only by legal eagles, doctors, and mechanics. No way a small establishment could afford this for very long.

Also a printed notice is not always sufficient. Just ask McDonalds or many other businesses that have been SLAPPED. If no damage is done to a person's private property and allowances are made (such as said security mage), then yes, the business can get away with it. Otherwise even with a printed notice, they are still looking at a lawsuit.

Don't believe me, go ahead and ask an attorney. You can post "No Tresspassing, Enter at your own risk" all you like on your property line. If someone gets hurt even when trespassing and even when notice was posted, you can still be sued for negligence and you will lose. Even if the trespasser is robbing you, and you wound him, you can still face a losing lawsuit against willful negligence. [Moral of that story: simply kill intruders. It is easier.]

In short, except for very special areas for very important guests or in businesses with a lot of ready case (i.e. megacorps), you simply will not see a lot of wards in public places. WILL NOT HAPPEN At best, if such wards would be restricted to courthouses and other public places where public security outweights individual convenience....and private restaurant's don't in general qualify.

-Polaris

[Talia Invierno]

Civil lawsuits are strange. There's currently liability lawsuits against the airlines involved in 9/11 (edit) for having allowed the events of 9/11 to occur through negligence on their part. (?!) Enough said.

You haven't said exactly which numbers you're looking for, White Dwarf, so I'll give what I know. The various sourcebooks give good senses of space. The original Sprawl book gave floorplans of various upscale and midscale places including McHugh's - my GM currently has it but IIRC the floor space was in the range of 300-500 square metres (McHugh's sprawled more than most).

From the new SSG, the floor space of low, medium, high, and luxury apartments was given as around 50, 100, 200, and 700 square metres respectively. (From memory, so a figure or two might have slipped.

From what I remember of my notes about the mage security specialist, (I think it was non-karma'ed) wards stayed up for one week per success. Add in a bound watcher or low-Force elemental to patrol the more secure areas (very low Karma cost for year and a day patrol) and you have quite reasonable magical security from virtually all incidental things ... if not from any determined shadowrunner.

Sorry about the haphazardness of this reply - working off-the-cuff without books or notes at hand.

[Kanada Ten]

[TinkerGnome]

I think I'll write up a magical group which does this kind of work as a company later. It makes a lot of sense from a financial standpoint since the awakened individuals don't need to be mages or anything so otherwise employable.

As for being able to get your magical goodies into the establishment... That's what the coat/gun/magic check room is for. If you don't like it, eat somewhere else. I'd say no more than 0.1% of the population is carrying around magic they can't turn off (if you take mages as 1%, and consider that foci can be shut off most of the time with no penalty), so it's no big loss. You keep out the dual beings, but who wants that kind of riff-raff in your store anyway?

[Kagetenshi]

[Polaris]

Kagenteshi,

In shadowrun *all* knives are illegal (and you can't even get a permit for them). That is true even for hunting/survival knives. In addition to that IIRC (at least in my local area) any blade over 6 inches long is illegal. Aside from that, when I was younger I did a lot of mountaineering. I never had a problem with my hunting knife (5 and a half inches) as long as it was belted, secured and sheathed. Pistols were not allowed, but IMX knives usually were.

-Polaris

[Kagetenshi]

As that was a real-life example, what the laws are in Shadowrun is irrelevant. My knife, while legal, is not allowed in at the least the places I've walked into after a long day hiking and have been told "I'm going to have to ask you to leave your knife outside."

~J

[Sunday_Gamer]

...and just because. =)

We use "guys" as gender neutral up here as well. It's a gender neutral term one uses with ones friends, to refer to people as "guys" just means you're talking to a group of friends.

The terms "The Boys" and "The Girls" refers to sex within members of "the guys"

Point IS, don't be one of those angry people who just assumes everything he or she reads is meant to offend them. Try giving people the benefit of the doubt.

Sunday.

[Talia Invierno]

What about butter knives?

[BitBasher]

[Kanada Ten]

Sunday Gamer, I had given the poster the doubt, at first. I asked the poster to stop using "Guys" because it makes the poster sound bad. I am not the poster's friend so the reference to me as such sounds patronizing and chauvinist.

Telling me to "Get over it" is simply instigation after I expressed my desire to not be automatically prejudiced by the poster's grammatical choices.

[Glyph]

Sphynx: Where are you getting the idea that wards just weaken a quickened spell when they win the opposed test? All I could find, on pg. 83 of awakenings, was that it was an opposed test, and the quickened spell got destroyed if it lost or tied.

A few notes on wards:

The area that an awakened character can ward is based on the Magic Attribute, so a mundane ghoul would not be able to make a ward - you need an actual Magic rating of at least 1.

Also note that more than one mage can work on a ward, which can have a rating of up to their combined Magic ratings. So wards of higher than Force: 6 are not restricted to initiates. I agree that wards of higher than Force: 6 should still be comparatively rare, though.

I think wards would be used sparingly in public places, tending to be used only for things like restricted areas. They would be more common for things like secure apartment buildings and other less public areas.

[Sphynx]

MitS pg 83: