Right, enough of this sustained spell nonsense... Options

[TinkerGnome]

Here's an idea, let me know what you guys think:

AAA Astral Security
Type: Dedicated
Members: 10-12
Strictures: Oath, Fraternity, Belief (Code of Ethics), Deed
Resources/Dues: High Resources/no dues
Customs: AAA Astral Security sprang into being as the brain child of Carter Douglas, an ex-shadowrunning sorcerer. The group is dedicated to providing afordable security to smaller companies who cannot afford to hire mages full time. Starting with just himself back in 2059, in the last few years, Carter has hired on several individuals like himself, groggies and half-awakened who have the power to make wards but not the kind of mojo it takes to get ahead in the corporate world.
Joining the company requires an oath of non-disclosure about the group's security practices, clients, and other sensitive data. While a few of the magicians in the company are part timers (ie, have other jobs) there are six full time employees who handle the various tasks of setting up and monitoring wards at area businesses.
Business: AAA is fairly straightforward with their services. They set up a ward, and if it is broken, they will call in an alert to the company which handels the establishment's physical security. Reguardless of whether the alarm was real or not, mages will arrive to reward the establishment within a designated amount of time based on their contract.
Contracts: There are a handful of service levels available from AAA Astral Security. They include:
Minimal: Force 1 ward, placed by three mages. This tends to deter floating spirits looking for a place to crash, or at least alerts someone to their presence. Response time for astral cleaning and rewarding is generally within 12 hours. Emergency calls will be answered in under 4 hours. Cost: 600 :nuyen: per month and 300 any time the wards must be reset.
Basic: Force 3 ward, placed by three mages. This offers a more rigid astral security that may actually stop intrusion instead of just causing an alarm when it does. Response time for astral cleaning and rewarding is generally 8 hours or less. Emergency calls will be answered in under 4 hours. Cost: 1,200 :nuyen: per month and 600 any time the wards must be reset.
Premium: Force 5 ward, placed by three mages. One bound watcher spirit with orders to respond to intrusion as prescribed by the customer. This type of security is tighter and proof against everything except deliberate intrusion. Cost: 5,000 :nuyen: a month (Carter has an enchanter on staff). Resetting the wards is generally free. Resummoning the watcher will cost more (depending on how much time is left in the month).
Elite: Force 6 (or better) ward, placed by three (or more) mages. One bound watcher spirit and one bound force 5 elemental (or more). Cost: 25,000 :nuyen: per elemental to be bound and then 5,000 a month or more.

These prices are for establishments with area less than 700 cubic meters for floor space. Larger buildings may incur an additional charge.

[Cain]

The other thing to remember is that only low-force spells are legal. Anything higher requires a permit, and may or may not be acceptable in all areas.

Also: It's legal to carry and own soda cans, but that doesn't mean you can bring them into a movie theater. There may not be a law, but that doesn't mean they have to let it in, either. The same holds true with armor (see the Armor and Society rules); someone flashing a lot of obvious magical defenses might be considered exactly the same.

[Polaris]

Cain,

You are right in one way. Most private establishements have the right to refuse service to anyone for any reason. This was weaked during the Civil Rights era, but it remains generally true today....

HOWEVER.....

The right to refuse service does NOT give you the right to destroy someone else's property even if they try to sneak into your place of business against your wishes. That is what wards (can) do. A typical commercial ward is highly unlikely to damage the focus/quickened spell of a serious shadowrunning mage, but it is VERY likely to destroy those items that are in fact legal....and even a posted notice will not save you from a lawsuit in such a case.

Hence wards in anything that is remotely public would be vanishingly rare, and near as I can tell would only be found in places where public security outweighs all other considerations (airports, courthouses, white-house, etc etc).

-Polaris

[Cain]

Actually, a posted notice will absolve most people of liability. For example, there are clearly-posted notices at the courthouse, to declare all weapons. Should you fail to declare a weapon, and are summarily jumped by half-a-dozen rent-a-comps plus a cop or two, you're going to have one hell of an uphill battle to prove that they didn't respond appropriately-- and they could respond with serious force. Those notices do mean that you probably won't succeed if you try and sue for damages.

The BBB makes it clear that anyone whom an establishment feels is "looking for trouble", they can deny entrance to. Given that, and the fear and misinformation the general public has towards magic, it wouldn't be surprising for small businesses to have some form of cheapo magical security.

The argument you're citing works against "booby traps"-- there are laws against excessive security, which vary from state to state but generally ban any form of lethal trap for home security. However, if you're entering a place illegally, you lose considerable civil rights, and generally property damage is not recoverable.

For example, if a farmer has a clearly-posted electrical fence, and you try and trespass on his land and are injured by the fence, you have little to no recourse. If the fence wasn't clearly labeled, you may be able to present an attractive nuisance defense, or that the farmer was negligent in not clearly marking it as dangerous. However, if things were marked clearly, then you're out of luck.

Low-force wards (rating 2) could therefore be very commonplace. As always, it depends on the GM. You will most likely be tripping alarms wherever you go, as you break through ward after ward. The exact responses should, of course, vary.

[Polaris]

Um Cain,

I happen to know that if even if a farmer had a clearly labeled electric fence, he is still liable for harm done to trespassers.

This would be doubly true for the destruction of private property that had no threatening use (like Executive Protection or healing potions) since most magical items are actually in mundane (not awakened) hands.

In short, liability is a real *bitch* and no business will risk it in a public place. Now if there is a place where public security is the overriding concern (courthouses, airports, security vaults, etc, etc) that is different...but not a Joe's Resaurant. No way in hell.

-Polaris

[BitBasher]

is there any evidence that Seattle in SR, or the UCAS for that matter is lawsuit happy like the USA today? I don't recall seeing anything of that nature.

[Polaris]

Bitbasher,

On the other hand there is no information that says that it isn't either. As such I think we have to assume that it is since the players are assumed to be familiar with the default world culture today (21st century US for better or worse). Any deviation in culture needs to be documented if it has game effects.

For that matter, if anything SR IMHO would be more lawsuit happy. You have a massive undertrodden populace that slaves away for big business with little hope of advancement or even a decent life. A good solid lawsuit can easily make even a megacorp pay you a quick million nuyen in "hush" money. Who wouldn't take this? In fact it was a lawsuit in SR that created the Shiawase decision. Thus I would have to conclude (until I can be shown otherwise) that SR is actually more lawsuit happy than the modern USA.

-Polaris

[Person 404]

[Polaris]

Person 404,

In of itself, no, but there are other things that tell me that SR is probably even more lawsuit happy. I have already stated what they are....untrodden people look for ways to get back at the "big bad" corp (in fact SR is built around this). A good stiff lawsuit is one of the best ways to do this....and the Megacorps know it (which is one reason they insist on extrality).

In addition to that, the fact remains that most players will be from (or at least have the values of) 21st century America. That is simply because for better or worse, the US is the current cultural collossus. *That* means that worlds will assume a 21st century US culture and then explain the deviations from there. Since the SR world does not specifically state that lawsuits are uncommon then, we must assume that they (still) are.

-Polaris

[tisoz]

I would say less lawsuits.

What was the result of the Shiawase decision? It let corps say frag off!

Joe Shmoe files his big damage lawsuit against a biz. Business hires shadowrunners for some easy wetwork. Less costly than the pre-trial defense costs and way less than the 1M :nuyen: hush money.

[Sphynx]

Actually (can you believe I'm defending anything Polaris says?!?) the Shiawase decision was only for international company. Your typical business (such as a restaurant) doesn't fall under the Corporate Extraterritoriality laws. Laws of the governing government are still abided by for non-international corporations. So, the right to have a Ward would have to be decided by UCAS (in Seattle) and what rights civilians have according to that government.

Personally, I agree with the mojority that it'd be perfectly ok, and within a company's right to have said Ward, but that's because I believe UCAS would grant those rights.

Sphynx

[kevyn668]

so let me see if get this straight: Megas w/ extraterritoriality can throw up wards wherever they so choose and if your stuff gets whacked...well, screw ya. b/c they have they're own laws. Right?

Now mom and pops, assuming that they not in the confines of Corp Xtra-T turf can't use wards for fear of getting sued....hmmm

I think you all have good points but some of can't see the forest for the trees. In RL, Polaris is correct about negligence. Back a few years ago some creep broke into some old lady's house, slipped on her recently waxed floor, broke his leg and in a (typical) miscarriage of justice sued her. AND won. That being said, in SR if I want a mom and pop place to have Ward, it will. I'm the GM. And until one of my players can produce legal codes of the UCAS circa 2055 or better, tough crap. Thats the way I see it.

As to the original post on this thread, you all have given me excellent ideas on how to make things difficult for the over zealous mage. Thank you. :spin:

[IcyCool]

[Zazen]

[TinkerGnome]

If any of these were going to figure in as examples, they probably shouldn't.

[kevyn668]

[goes to get pop-rocks and a Coke]

Urban legends? Don't know what youre talking about...

[Cain]

I certainly haven't heard of any *actual* cases like that. There have been some attractive-nuisance cases, but those are a different matter, and typically involve children.

Since electric fences are legal, but certain types of barbed-wire fences aren't, I'd say that a clearly marked and labeled electric fence generally clears a person of liability. Similarily, a clearly marked and labeled ward would clear a business of liability.

[Polaris]

Cain,

I never said a ward or an electric fence wasn't legal. What I said (and this is true...check it out yourself) was that if a person injured themselves on your electric fence....even if the warnings were posted....then you as the property owner are liable.

The same applies to deadly force....just because someone is on your property even in violation of "No Trespassing" signs does NOT give you the right to use deadly force. This last varies from place to place but is generally true. [However in Texas, you do have the right to use deadly force on a trespasser as long as the tresspass is between Sundown and Sunup.]

The problem with the ward is not the existance of the Ward per se but the fact it destroys pefectectly valid and non-threatening public property. That is where the liability issue comes in.....and no small business will want to risk that. My parents owned a small business and this issue came up a lot (as artists they used many toxic chemicals....and liability was a big stink). In addition my grandmother was a small farmor with electric fences....and she was DAMN careful with the voltages again because of liability. Don't think that a small busines would be equaly cautious about wards in shadowrun.

-Polaris

[John Campbell]

[Polaris]

John,

No it is not ludicrous. There is a difference between trespassers on private property and destruction of private property by those you have invited in. There is a big difference in fact...and given the hard realities of Shadowrun, I would be shocked if it wasn't as liability happy as today's world if not more. That is why A+ corps insist on extrality...so they don't have to worry about it.

In any event even if the Mom-and-Pop restaurant is cleared (and it probably won't be) the legal costs alone would be enough to discourage the practice of wards in public restaurants or other such places. There is no way a small business owner will risk a suit even if he wins. That I happen to know to be true as well.

-Polaris

[Bearclaw]

If you pay a mage 10,000 to anchor a bullet barrier/detect bullet combo to your tie tack, and it gets blown up by the ward of a movie theater, who pays to replace it?

[Polaris]

Bearclaw,

The movie theatre pays. That is standard liability law. The theatre is a public place and you were wearing a non-threatening and perfectly legal item of property which the theatre destroyed.

That is why public wards will in general be avoided.

-Polaris

[Kanada Ten]

[Cain]

Polaris: I have checked it out. The precice laws vary from state to state, but in general, if you have a clearly-marked electric fence that is kept in good repair, and someone else in injured on it due to their own negligence, you're in the clear.

Other than that, what Kanada said. What's more, you can conditionally invite certain people-- requesting they check their weapons, not allowing certain items, that sort of thing. If someone sneaks into a movie theater with a very expensive bottle of champagne, then trips and breaks it, the theater isn't liable because you weren't supposed to bring it inside in the first place.

As always, and as agreed by everyone here, the final arbiter is the GM. He gets to decide how magically paranoid the world in general is. Why are you arguing against that?

[tisoz]

Why would Restaurants and such ward their entire dining room? I can see maybe a small warded private dining room but not the entire building.

"To protect their customers from offensive magic." What offensive spells are sustained? Every defensive spell except for Redirect is sustained.

What about the corpers who have Increase Charisma or other attribute locked on them? Or the one that has a mask spell to hide some deformity or scar? Or the businessman that has to deal with all languages in the global economy and has a translate spell sutained by a focus?

Most of the spells that are sustained are defensive or detection based and pose no threat to others. Sustaining foci are about the only foci that have an issue with wards, most other foci can be deactivated, pass through the ward, and simply activated again.

Wards on business property for security purposes make some sense, but not on places like bars and stores that invite the public to enter.