Right, enough of this sustained spell nonsense... Options

[Kanada Ten]

[tisoz]

[Kanada Ten]

I am of the opinion that wards are cheaper than anchors, not to mention more common (it only requires a single point of Magic and Astral Perception to ward, while anchoring requires karma, a focus, spells, initiation, taking drain without knowing when, re linking).

Invisibility is an "offensive" spell, just not in the combat sense. Think about restrooms, personal privacy, ect.

You didn't say anything about critters, ritual sorcery (look at Hatchman's story and TT's Black Rings), or Shedim.

I agree, wards are not often common around entire businesses -for most games. But they can easily become so if spells are abused.

Do you think McHughs will want mages with "Immunity to NeroStun" sustained or anchored or quickened walking in? Don't you think The Eye of the Needle would get a tad upset over a mage walking in with Levitation?

And what about inner sanctums? Where PC's meet J's?

[Polaris]

Cain,

I am "arguing" this point so hard because some of you want to use wards to screw over shadowruning mages so much that you are forgetting your basic common sense. While it is true that invitations can be conditional, and while it is true that the theatre is not liable if you break a bottle of champagne on the premises, that is much different that the situation with wards.

I will use the champagne example to illustrate my point:

The theatre can ask you to check in the bottle; the theatre can ask you not to bring it on the premises; the theatre does not have to pay because *you* broke the bottle.

HOWEVER, if an usher hassled you because you brough in the champagne and then willfully and deliberately broke the bottle, then *YES* the Theatre is liable for the damages. That is basic liability law. The same applies to wards. The establishment can put up all the warning signs they like, but the owners KNOW that a ward doesn't keep out items....it can destroy them. That means that the owners are willfully destroying other people's property.

Now in private areas sure.....there may be some call for it. Certainly there are areas (Bank Vaults, Private Shielded Rooms, etc etc) where you sign away certain rights, but there is no way in hell that a public place will have lots of wards in places open to the general public. Even if they are perfectly in the clear (a point I contest), the legal costs alone in defending themselves would bankrupt most businesses. The business could get around that by having the mage on staff check and then allow people through the wards (sort of like the ushers at a theatre), but that gets expensive quick. You are much better off not bothering with wards at all (except for very special places and circumstances) and going for biofibre and the like which don't run the liability risk.

-Polaris

[The White Dwarf]

Thats the best wording I think youve managed so far Polaris, and it does bring up a few good points. Biofiber as an alternative to warding for a high class restaurant is certianly feasible and a good alternative. So is the bit about common sense versus wards to make a mage's work harder. Personally, I think the issue is a bit overstated as it wont come up often in games, but that example does a good job of clearly illuminating your points.

One thing thats surprised me is some of the talk about people's groups comprising of all/mostly magical runners. Not only would our group find that boring, but also unrealistic and one-sided. We had such an event happen once, and two people immediatly wanted to swap to another character concept when the team started because it would have been lunacy to have 4 awakened and 1 mundane on the team. They were much happier with the diversity of only 2 awakened, and did it on their own before I even said anything. Its kinda shocking that magic is so prevalent in some games that some of these issues even come up.

[hobgoblin]

does it not say that the mage setting up the ward can define who else can pass tru it? that would cover any foci or quickend spell connected to the aura of the people allowed. i dont have my books at hand so i cant look up the max number of people the magican can allow tho...

but who needs to walk around with active armor, invisibility, levitation or similar? as for the exec with the detect bullet/bullet armor combo, i would say that the guards check with the place visited beforehand so that they know of the place is warded or not...

allso, i dont realy support the idea of entire retaurants (or similar) being warded but i see special areas being so. its just not cost effective to ward entire buildings...

but all this is up to the gM and his game, but frankly if a mage in a game im gMing will realy face problems if he thinks he can walk around with 3-4 spell or more active at ones (outside direct combat or run that is)...

[Cain]

So, this is all because us GM's are out to screw the players?

There's no reason for places to not ward their facilites, especially places where privacy is an issue. The liability issue is nonexistant, according to this similar example on Findlaw.com. As always, things will vary from state to state and GM to GM. But if personal injury isn't covered, then it's pretty certain that property damage isn't, either.

The issue seldom comes up in games I've run or played in, simply because most mages have the sense to keep their foci turned off until they need them. It's only when people go around with illegal active foci that a problem arises-- and since they were illegal in the first place, you can't sue for recovery.

[Polaris]

Cain,

This is not the same thing at all. In this case by putting up the ward, the owner is deliberately and willfully attempting to destroy private property. This can be mitigated if there is an usher/security-mage there to check in items and/or allow people through the ward, but my example of the usher deliberately breaking someone else's property is spang on the mark.

To continue with the snowmobile example you posted, what if the farmer deliberately shot the snowmobile with a high-powered rifle as soon as it crossed his propertyline. You damned well better believe that the farmer would be liable for the damage!!!

That is the case here...especially since non-instrusive astral security measures (like Biofibre) exist that do NOT destroy private property.

-Polaris

P.S. Actually that is wrong too. Even if personal injury isn't covered, property damage may well be (and often is). That is especially true in western states (such as Texas) where you can kill a man attempting to destroy your property under relatively lenient circumstances (such as it being night-time). That is why in Texas at least, no one will Repo your car after dark...at least not without a bulletproof vest.

In short, property liability and personal injury are not subsets of each other.

[Sphynx]

I think you 2 are just argueing to argue now. I agree with Cain but not for any reason coming from modern day excuses for law. More because Wards are described as Common, they are cheap to get, and in a world where so many paranormal anamolies exist, aside from foci and sustained spells, it's like complaining that putting bulletproof glass in a place.

I don't give a rat's ass what today's laws are, nor what someone else believes tomrrows laws will be. The book implies that wards are common, my GM puts Force 5 Wards on any place that would have mundane security guards, and there's nothing saying he shouldn't. Sounds good to me, and my little over-quickened shaman never complains at all. I just eat at cheap restaurants, avoid certain public places and shop in the ghetto.

If someone walks through a public place where they know there's a Ward while having an active Force 2 or lower focus, they should expect it to risk destruction. A Force 3 (9 dice, TN 5) will surely get a success, and when it doesn't 5 dice, TN 6 (twice the force of the focus) has a good chance of failing. Just don't have an active focus when you enter a place. Leave your anchor, with your gun, at the desk in the foyer. Turn the others off.

Sphynx

[Polaris]

Sphynx,

That's fine for mages who can *see* the wards and always have the option of turning their spells and foci back on when they are through. That is seriously uncool for those perfectly law-abiding mundanes whose perfect valid (and very expensive) private property was destroyed.

That's the problem with wards. They don't stand much of a chance of destroying illegal items, but they stand a VERY good chance of destroying legal ones...and that has lawsuit written all over it.

In short, you have to use freaking common sense. No small business owner will risk the ire of important clients (to say nothing of lawsuits...win or lose) for wards when perfectly safe and effective substitutes exist (like biofibre).

-Polaris

[Sphynx]

Not true. If it's common practice for wards to exist (which in our world it is), then the lawabiding citizen knows to read the sign that says to Leave Guns, and Arcane Trinkets at the Door or risk losing them.

If you really want to get into legal aspects (which I really don't wanna do, I just accept that wards are everywhere as do all the mundanes in our world), how do you convince a court (who barely even accept magical anything into evidence) that the trinket was destroyed?

Sphynx

[TinkerGnome]

As an example, take the airport. If you walk into the security checkpoint with half a dozen shot gun shells loose in your pocket, they WILL BE DESTROYED most of the time (provided you don't want to and have the means of placing them in a container meant to hold ammunition within your checked bags, but that's a huge hassel and I don't know that you are given the option in many places). The signs clearly indicate that bringing such items past the checkpoint is forbidden. You are expected to know what the rules are and abide by them. And, get this, airports are private property. Not only that, the responsibility for which passengers (and what items) can and cannot get past a checkpoint is the domain of the airlines (ie, private companies).

As far as warding goes... large areas aren't a problem since any company which is doing warding would, by necessity, have to use several mages to ward each building so they could have someone on duty when the ward is breeched. If nothing else, you'd see force 1 and 2 wards virtually everywhere to keep out astral and (some) paracritter vermin. I just noticed alarm wards in MitS, which may give me something else to think about for a security company.

Biofiber is simply not a viable solution for many businesses. A generic 300 cubic meter (11mx11mx2.5m) building would require approximately 110 square meters of biofiber at a cost of 11,000 :nuyen: per force and 550 :nuyen: a month in feed and water. AND if something gets past it, you'll never known.

The obvious solution from a liability perspective would be to just use alarm wards and pay for all of the extra responses you'd get (they don't seem to go down when they are crossed).

[kevyn668]

[Glyph]

Ya know, I hate to agree with Polaris... it always feels like walking into the Alamo and saying "Hey Col. Travis, how's it going?"

But I agree with him (and hobgoblin) that I don't see wards as being that common in areas of public access. They would be too much of a nuisance and a liability hazard - not to mention that there is no way to turn a quickened spell "off". I see them as more for the secure areas, like the back room with the safe, or the restricted area where maintenance people go. I don't see a ward on the front door of a public place, though. Corporate facilities and other areas with restricted access are another story, of course.

[Cain]

Considering that "public places" to me mean courthouses, government offices, and the like-- I'd certainly see wards being on those. I was working in a Federal office building around the time of Oaklahoma City; the security level was best described as "paranoid".

Further, mundanes would need to prove that the particular ward was responsible for destroying the anchoring focus, and not some other wandering astral entity.

IIRC, at the airport if you do not pay to have banned items mailed back to yourself, they will be confiscated and destroyed. Even if the item is legal-- guns and knives are perfectly legal to own and carry, but bringing it into an airport could easily mean they will be taken and destroyed.

Also, considering that in Texas, an intruder has no chance of suing successfully if he's shot and killed, or of recovering medical expenses, I don't see how he could recover property damages. As always, laws will vary from state to state, but in general an intruder loses a great deal of their ability to sue.

[Lucyfersam]

1. Wards are a fairly common security measure at high class establishments. For example, the first hotel that we stayed at during the GenCon tournament (which, given that it is run by fanpro I figure falls under the way they view the legality), the main entrance and lobby area were warded. High class places can and will afford the level of security they want, and this will probably include a staff mage who will definitely be present when any bigwigs come through to allow their things through the ward.

2.Unless you are at the very top of the social food chain (the bigwigs mentioned above), no court is going to give a devil rat's ass if you spell was destroyed. Courts are going to be primarily mundane, who on average probably fear magic, and law is oriented pretty strongly to keep magic controlled. If you ignore a warning sign, that is your problem and you precious spell is gone, tough luck. I guarantee that any court will consider a magical effect that they don't notice and never affects purely mundane people to be vastly more legit than some joker walking around with quickened spells that do who knows what.

basically, if you rank high enough, your fine, if you are powerful enough, your fine (although you will still trigger alarms), it is only if you are neither that you get screwed, and lets face, that's just the way of the world, the little guys get screwed.

[Kanada Ten]

As an example of legal and willful destruction of property, look at spike strips placed on the "Do Not Enter" exit of parking lots. If you run over these strips and pop your four tires, you pay because you were not obeying rules set up by private property signs.

[tisoz]

[Sphynx]

That's not a poor example at all, just because you accidently drive into a garage doesn't mean you were intent to steal. I've twice in my extremely common airport visits seen families sitting outside their car which they ran over those strips with. Never once seen someone I'd suppose was a thief.

Sphynx

[Kagetenshi]

They have them in places other than car rental places, you know.

~J

[RangerJoe]

When I think about what kind of magic knick-knacks and doohickeys are sported by Seattle's corp-riche population, I get the feeling that most middle-class through lower-upper-class joints (eh, B - AA or so) are not going to be heavily warded. I was working on a little module recently that required the runners to act as supplimentary security for a high-brow shindig. Warding everythign simply was not an option-- too many folks sport "make-over" and "healthy glow" spells, in addition to all kinds of benign illusion spells designed to nip, tuck, create smells, etc.

Sure there's lots of creepy things in SR-- rogue spirits, shedim, terrorists, "shadowrunners," etc., but I get the feeling it is more economical to respond to magical threats than to prevent them.

[Cain]

Not heavily warded, no. Few places will have heavy warding, that's agreed on. However, most places will be able to afford rating-2 wards, the astral equivalent of a padlock on the fence. It's not meant to keep out criminals, it's meant to keep out honest people.

[Polaris]

Cain,

Yes, but once more you are completely missing RangerJoe's point. The noveauriche will have lots of legal (and thus low powered) spells and foci on them of a completely nonthreatening nature. Most of these will be mundane, and all will be rich (with all the legal help that implies).

In such a circumstance, you simply CAN NOT ward the entire area....at least not without severe liability issues. Even if you win in court, you lose both in PR and in nuyen. Thus it *will* *not* *happen*.

Private areas sure; that's different....but not at the public buffet table or reception area.

-Polaris

[hobgoblin]

hmm, makeover and healty glow is health spells and are sustained only for a given time before they go permanent. as for using illutions is replacement of plastic surgery, strange choice...

[Polaris]

Hobgoblin,

Using illusion instead of surgery is not that strange a choice. A surgeon can screw up and that means you can get uglier.....and it can cost essence and/or bio-index in such an event. Illusions don't carry that risk to the subject.

In addition to that, there are a lot of minor magical nick-nacks that a noveauriche person can often have that are perfectly legal. Magical ability may be rare and feared, but by canon, magic itself is chic.

-Polaris