Right, enough of this sustained spell nonsense... Options

[Sphynx]

[Kagetenshi]

Plus a jury would be disinclined to help someone who knowingly disregarded a sign warning them of the potential destruction of their property and alerting them that such items could be checked through by a security mage.

~J

[IcyCool]

[Kanada Ten]

Magical trinkets are chic for modern society since the start of the Comet's passage, as per YotC and SSG. Though the books state that almost all of these are fake.

[Polaris]

Guys,

Nope...sorry the spiked strip example doesn't fly. You see with the spiked strip, the car can still enter the building in a legal way with no search and seizure issues and with no chance of property damage.

This is not true with the use of wards that have been proposed. If you ward the entire fragging building, then you are in fact discriminating against an entire class of people (those that have or use magical items or spells) and you are doing so preferrentially against those that do obey the law.

That will get you an expensive lawsuit PDQ.

You can get around this by having security mages check in and/or allow people through wards in conjunction with posted notices. However, since Mages earn about as much as Doctors, Lawyers, and Mechanics per hour this is simply unviable for must businesses. Megacorps can get away with it because megacorps are their own law. Likewise the government can get away with it because public-safety can outweigh private convenience.

Neither of these applies at Joe's diner. Use some god given fragging sense people and stop trying to frag over the mage at the risk of looking silly. Private rooms may have wards...even strong ones, but you won't see them in public, period.

-Polaris

[Kagetenshi]

If it's a fancy restaurant, it'll have a mage on staff.
If it isn't, it probably won't be warded, but even if it were the point will be irrelevant, because generally people with magical trinkets won't be going there.

~J

[Kanada Ten]

Child,
You will see them in my games once Shedim attack Joe's using fried chicken and skinned cats from the kitchen.

[Cain]

[Polaris]

Cain,

You can't always do that. For example if you had a restaurant that posted, "No Coloreds Allowed", would that owner be liable for a lawsuit?

YOU BET! The same applies in SR to saying "No Orcs Allowed." That is canon btw.

The same logic applies here. The mundane owner of a quickened and/or sustained effect CAN NOT bypass the ward by simply obeying the printed notice. That makes the practice disciminatory and thus unlawful. This can by bypassed by having a security mage on staff. A government building (such as a courthouse) will have this. A private restaurant may not (because it costs too much).

Clearer now? Please use your common sense and stop trying to screw over magic on stupid shit. If you have this much trouble with magic, make it weaker. As it is magic is probably too good....but accept that and deal with it rather than trying to make issues (like wards in public places) that any fool can tell you probably won't exist.

-Polaris

[Kanada Ten]

[Friggas Ring]

Has anyone brought up SURGE yet? I've been trying to stay away from this whole thread because of how heated it's gotten, but my character somehow managed to roll the best roll of his life. Too bad it was checking to see if he was affected by SURGE. Now he's dual natured (among other things). If they start warding up courthouses and movie theaters and restaurants, it's going to make his life so much more difficult. It'd be like being confined to a wheelchair, but these places have no handicap entrances.

[Kanada Ten]

Dual Natured was mentioned.

Your character might have a legitimate claim in a civil case for discrimination -who you try to sue will determine how short your life span is.

[Polaris]

Kanada,

Nope. I haven't changed my logic once. It all comes back to the same old problem:

You can not turn a ward off and wards are stupid, i.e. they will attempt to destroy any magical item or anything with a dual nature regardless of source or threat.

That is what makes the owner of the ward liable. Thus the property damage argument and the discriminatory argument both follow from the same logic. This practice is illegal.

Friggas Ring's argument is spang on. It is exactly like trying to run a public place without a handicapped entrance. That is unfair, discriminatory, and illegal. You must have a way to allow perfectly legal and valid citizens who happen to have legal spells, items, or happen to be dual natured through the ward. If you can't, then you can not use the ward but must use something else (like biofibre).

That *is* the law, and since it is canonical that UCAS inherited the civil rights legislation from both Canada and the US, it is UCAS law as well.

-Polaris

[Polaris]

Kanada,

Nope. Even in shadowrun, you can't kill a lawsuit by killing the plaintiff. That is why megacorps and the corporate court insist on extrality.

1. In most lawsuits, you have multiple plaintiffs including groups of interested parties (such as the ACLU or in SR the ACCLU).

2. Just because you kill the plaintiff, does not mean you kill the lawsuit. The heirs of the person can continue the case (and often will) and many judges will hear the case anyway. Post-Mortem liability awards are not unknown.

-Polaris

[Kanada Ten]

It requires an act of Congress to declare a non-homo sapiens citizenship. Until SURGE, no homo sapiens was dual natured. So until the case comes to court... which depends on the GM (it took how long to get rid of segregation?).

And as I've said: you can allow someone through a ward with advanced permission. It is no different than requiring reservations.

[Polaris]

Kanda,

Now you are reaching. A person affected with SURGE can still breed with a normal human being. That is a proven fact. Thus the person is a homo sapiens and has full legal rights.

NEXT!

-Polaris

[Kanada Ten]

Reread my post.

[added for the fun of it]
Ward makers earn 100 nuyen per hour, they need not be mages.
So, not quite as much as doctors and lawyers for that.

[BitBasher]

[Kagetenshi]

He's got a point. Example: "You must be this tall to ride!"

~J

[Polaris]

Bitbasher,

Sorry but that is not entirely true. For example, if you have an establishment open to the public, you can post "No Dogs Allowed" and you would be on very firm legal ground.

HOWEVER.....

If a blind person comes in with a Seeing Eye Dog, then you must allow that Dog into the establishment. That *is* the law.

As for protected class, it doesn't work quite the way you mentioned. The default assumption is that a person falls into a protected class unless you can show good reason (usually safety) why they can't. Thus it is legal for safety reasons to prohibit a person from taking an amusement park ride because they don't fall in a certain band of height and weight. Safety is the overriding concern. HOWEVER, you would be sued (and you would lose) if you tried to open up a burger stand and you refused to serve anyone under five feet tall.

The same applies here. You have to SHOW that there is an overriding need to prohibit dual-natured citizens from frequenting your establishment. You can't. Peroid. Likewise you would have to SHOW an overriding need to prohibit all magical items....and likewise you can't. What you can do is have a mage on staff that inspects and allows certain people and items through, but that still bypasses the ward. This *is* done in courtrooms and airports. If you have (for example) a pace-maker, you don't have to go through the metal detector. The guards will wave you down with wands instead and then allow you to bypass the detector.

The same applies here. There is simply NO WAY that wards in small businesses would be as prevalent as you all are trying to make them. Legal and Fiscal considerations preclude it. Stop trying to "screw" the mages and start using some sense please.

-Polaris

[Kanada Ten]

There is simply no way you can convince me that magic is not considered dangerous to public safety.

[Polaris]

Kanada,

I shouldn't have to because it is well know that not all magic is dangerous to public safety. In fact minor magical effects and items have become tres chic for those that can afford them, and those are verifiably not dangerous.

What more do you need? To put wards the way you want to, you would have to show that all magica was so dangerous that you could discrimate on that basis....and you can't...especially since most magical effects so discriminated against are in fact on mundanes.

-Polaris

[Kanada Ten]

Hackers are not as a class dangerous, they are just computer coders. Buy if I go to a resturant with a shirt that says "Hackers Rule" they are within there rights to deny me entrance.

[Polaris]

Kanada,

Actually the establishment is on very shaky grounds in so doing. The thing is a 'hacker' is considered a criminal and the restaurant can argue that you are promoting criminal activity. Silly, but they can say that. That can not be said for magic. The person with the magical item or (especially!) the person that is dual natured is NOT interfering with the decorum of other guests (because magic is invisible).

Thus there is a FAR cry from refusing entrance to someone that doesn't fulfill the dress code (which is offensive to the other patrons) to someone having a perfectly legal item....or even a property that can not be seen by others.

To use your restaurant example, while a restaurant might get away with refusing service to a person wearing obnoxious clothing (said T-Shirt) because it offends other patrons, they would NOT be able to get away with denying serivice to an old woman with a truly loathesome wart. Look it up; that is discrimination. Same applies for anyone that is dual natured...and thus wards become too problematic to be used in general public areas.

Use some common sense please.

-Polaris

P.S. Hackers as a class are dangerous because the common definition of Hacker is "Computer Criminal". I know; I know that it should be 'cracker' but that is not the common usage....and thus your argument falls apart because 'Hacker' as popularly known does label a class of dangerous person.

[Kanada Ten]