Right, enough of this sustained spell nonsense... Options

[Talia Invierno]

Aiyah. But no one can actively mask all the time now, can they?

[motorfirebox]

um, sunday, lone star is a corporation. nova's character helps them, apparently out of some delusion that they're "the cops" or "the good guys", but that doesn't mean he's not a runner. (he's just, y'know, a crazy runner.)

[Polaris]

Guys,

Anything with a "P" in the legality code is what I call 'psuedo-legal' in shadowrun. That is because in my experience any competant shadowrunning team is going to run under false identifications and will often have several.....good ones (rating 8 or even more). For very little extra cost, you can get fake pemits attachted to those identities and (again in my experience) most runners have SINs because the disadvantages of being SINless far outweight the advantages.....and again for just a thousand nuyen or so, a mage can have all the permits he or she needs. The same goes for any character with a heavy pistol.

I note that heavy pistols are just as illegal as force 3+ spirits, foci, and spells....actually more so in many cases, and rifles, submachine guns, and even knives are actually MORE illegal.

In short, sustained spells are a real problem (at least in my experience) in shadowrun...and one of the contributing factors is that most spells are generally LEGAL regardless of force (or at least effectively so).

-Polaris

[The White Dwarf]

The advantage/disadvantage of a SIN is directly proportional to how you choose to implement institutional presences in your games. If a runner with a SIN can be tracked by GridGuide, hes Telecom account, his Medical profile, his credit transactions, etc. its a whole different ballgame. If you dont make much use of such institutions (for lack of a better term) then having a SIN may indeed be more of an advantage.

Again what you have here is something that changes based on how you play the game. Permits or no, some games deal more harshly with them than others. Simply paying nuyen and having a permit on a legal SIN for your various gear might be a nice convenience for some, or a certain death certificate to others. Which category you get depends on your GM, the NPCs in your games, and of course the style you choose to play.

Im not sure how spells are becoming a problem. Within the context of the game world teams are portrayed as happy to have a good mage and many settle for a decent one. Magical security is expensive. Talent is limited. All of which mean that magic is, in portrayal at least, something that can swing an encounter from a loss to a win. So if magic is giving your team the edge then its showing up "correctly" game context wise. If theres some specific situation/combination that is getting out of hand, perhaps it would be better to seek a solution to it rather than try and determine if the system as a whole works.

[Sunday_Gamer]

First of all, my shaman HAS a sin, bought me one, a good one too. I just don't use it for anything that even remotely has to do with my alternate life as a shadowrunner, because I would quickly turn my expensive SIN into an expensive SIN wanted by the police.
I have always used SINs as exactly what they are. Everywhere you go and everything you do in "legal" society is tracked. Operating SINless is possible, but highly inconvenient, but aquiring permits and then using the licensed spells and foci during my criminal activities would jeopardize that identity and I payed too much for it.
So I guess the lesson to take away from all this is, you can walk around with 4-5 spells locked onto you if you have a permit and you are prepared to forsake "illegal" activity. Neither of which are options in both the games I run and the games I play in.
I'm jealous then, I don't get the luxury of walking around with all my spells up and sustained. :love:

And Motor, you don't strike me as a very happy person. Nova uses his alternate SIN, the one with the permits, when he does legal jobs. He doesn't use those guns when we run, I don't have the luxury of having different spells to use when I run.

Sunday.

[Polaris]

Guys,

Your shamans and mages do buy astral chameleon, right? If so, then there is no excuse for leaving any sort of spell signature behind. If you have a handful of initiate grades under your belt, in addition to centering, masking, shielding, and quickening, you should also consider cleansing since that wipes the entire astral slate clean (and it doesn't take long).

Seriously, even if you tossed your most powerful mojo, I have found that if you have astral chameleon, you can wipe the signatures of each spell completely within a combat turn....often two in a combat turn. Considering that combat turns only last a few seconds, you can completely wipe any scene long before lonestar or Corp Security arrives.

As for signatures, why try to keep them hidden? The trick is for the person that sees it not to connect it with your criminal activity, and that is actually fairly easy. After all, what mage is going to stop to assense you and pick up your signature while you are busy blowing his friends away with stunballs? Really....be sensible. He might try to pick it up later....but he has to survive to see later, and a mage with sustained and quickened spells up the yin makes that highly unlikely....especially if said mage is an initiate and the corp wage-mage is not (the usual case by the way).

Also what Lonestar cop (even a DIP) is going to take the trouble to analyze your permit six ways from Sunday unless he has a specific reason to do so (like an arrest warrant or suspicious behavior). He won't. If he sees a spell that is normally illegal, he will ask for the permit...and he will see if the permit is valid against your assumed SIN. Since that is dead easy to set up, the net effect is that most spells are defacto legal in shadowrun terms. [After all, you don't care about legality in the middle of the run...and you clean up your mess afterwards if you expect to survive....but that applies just as much to sammies dumping guns and changing ammo as it does to Mages.]

-Polaris

[Sphynx]

[Polaris]

Sphynx,

That's fine. In fact in the game I play in that has happed. So what? Assuming you have a SIN and assuming you live in the UCAS or CAS (and that is likely considering the default setting is Seattle), then let Lonestar/DIPs question me all they like. I am just a humble research mage/consultant with the paperwork to prove it.

Unless they can PROVE something (and they won't be able to), I can sport enough mojo to light up ten city blocks and there isn't anything the authorities can do about it. That is why sustained spells in SR are such a problem. If you haven't run into it, then IMHO you haven't run into a player that knows all the tricks with magic.

-Polaris

[Greyfoxx]

Light up ten city blocks w/o anyone knowing!? You're probably speaking figuratively. That's absurd.

If that was the case, makes me wonder why your game world still survive from being annihilated by mages like you! You're not the MOST POWERFUL MAGE in the world you know. Someone greater will always know, and there are greater powers out there that will find you if you pull off something that stupid.

[toturi]

Strange, the idea of a mage/shaman having a few sustained spells all the time is quite offensive to some people but not to others. :S

My opinion is that the mage in question can sport all the spells he can sustain 24/7 but as long as he has the necessary paperwork, no cop is going bother him. It is kind of like some cowboy sporting a six-shooter in the Wild West, no deputy is going to be bothered by another cowboy with a pistol.

As long as the runner has all the necessary SIN/permits, no policeman in the world is going to give himself more work by giving you more trouble.

By the way, the mojo lighting up a city block thing? I though we had debated that till the end of time already.

[Sphynx]

Greyfoxx... he didn't say anything about people not knowing. :P

As for the rest of your comments... may I ask what you're talking about? annihilated by mages like him? pullog off what's that stupid?

Admittedly, there's no way to 'light up' a 10 city block area, that was purely figurative, of course.

Polaris: I agree that in some settings (like this whole corp-hitting scenario I keep hearing about :P) that much mojo can be 'such a problem', but that sounds like the problem of the GM for not increasing the intensity of the campaign, not the fault of the player.

Our team includes such 'marvels' as a ambidextrous pistol wielding SL-2w/RF and 19+5d6 init speed demon, a character who has a skill of 12 in everything via non-stop purchases of Softs, a shaman who totes around with 9 Force 5+ spirits, a guy who rolls 35 dice in melee before using Combat Pool, etc, etc, etc.

The Quickened spells of my character (viewable by clicking on him in my signature) keeps me 'balanced' with them. I'm the 'utility' of the team, not god awful powerful, just one of a team which consists of people who are at levels 100 to 250 in Karma, each.

Guess I'm just not getting where a character like mine is unbalancing. Maybe in a game where everything is House Ruled to prevent anyone from getting powerful, but you can make anyone with 150ish karma bad-freaking-ass without the need for sustaining spells on them.

Sphynx

[Greyfoxx]

Ohh. I forgot the smileys. I was also talking figuratively, see. A mage with enough foci to light up 10 city blocks would probably be ultimately powerful and...

... anyway here are the smileys for that :D :D :D :D :D

[hobgoblin]

hmm, 10 city block, what would the focus adiction be for that level of power?

there are a lot of way so skin a cat, 99.9% of them are messy...

[The White Dwarf]

Guys, what spells are people sustaining that is oh so imbalancing? What are these tricks you speak of? I have yet to see any *examples* of what youre talking about, only things like "sustaining is huge" and "permits work" and other group-centric comments. Until I see some evidence that having your spells as legal or not even matters (in terms of a game balance view) the case is moot. So what if you could or coulnt do it, what effect is this having specifically?

And Sphynx, hope the ambidextrous guy isnt using his SL-2 while using two pistols.

[Sunday_Gamer]

Sphinx, you really have to stop calling it "my" definition of a runner. It's not like I invented it, I'm going on what is written in several places in the shadowrun rulebook. Once again, this doesn't mean anyone is less than anyone else or that you're not "playing the game right", just please stop acting like I invented the concept of shadowrunners as criminals, I'm just going with what's in the books.

Which pretty much takes us full circle. If you play in a campaign where you can get away with having everything licensed and registered then great for you!

This luxury is simply not a viable option in either the games I run or the games I play in. In our games, anonymity is the key, we aren't "bad guys", but we ARE criminals.

You seems to think because I'm a criminal I'm also "evil" which of course, for a shaman of monkey, is the farthest thing from the truth.

I get accused, rather constantly, of going out of way to help people when there isn't a penny to be made. I do runs for free, I give my money away and all manners of other behavior that certainly doesn't jive with the concept of "evil". I'm a criminal yes, but I'm with the good guys.

Sunday.

[Sunday_Gamer]

Dwarf, allow me to demonstrate.

Oh, look at that, all my spells and foci are registered and I have permits for all of them! Lucky me!

Let me cast my WILLPOWER(4) spell, take my time, make sure I score max successes (+4 to the stat) and look at that, I now have a 10 Willpower. Let me just throw up my CHARISMA spell and eh, I have 10 Charisma too! Armor anyone? What's that you say armor glows? Oh that's ok, invisibility please! I'm gonna need some flight so lock that levivate down. Hmmm too slow, better lock a reaction and a reflex booster spell too.

End result. Mage walking around with 5-6 sustaining foci keeping his spells up.

Willpower 10
Charisma 10
Armor 5
Levitate 4
Improved invisibility 4
Reactions +4 and +3d to initiative.

Do YOU want to meet this guy in a fight? He's a mage who's faster than the sams, better armor than the sams, far more mobile, and has 10 base dice to any drain test he makes.

Now those force numbers were pulled out of my monkey butt, but you should get the idea of why allowing someone to walk around with an armada of spells sustained can lead to headaches.

Sunday

[Greyfoxx]

This has most likely been said before, but...

...what if a spirit suddenly wants to play with you for a while.

[Lucyfersam]

Umm, if they are using foci to sustain those spells and unless they have a magic rating of something absurd (19, as that is 38 force worth of spells) they are going to be dealing with focus addiction in a bad way. No, there is no way I would want to face off against a mage like that, but either that mage is already so powerful that I would never dream of crossing them, or they are going to burn out due to focus addiction. Now, if all of those were quickened (I'm not sure how feasible that is, as I've never played a character who could quicken, nor has one ever played in any of my games), it might be a slightly different story. Although, I've always considered having that many spells up making a stealth entrance that much more difficult and not worth it (glaring beacons in astral space lack a certain amount of subtlety), and if you get noticed with that many powerful spells they wont send a security patrol after you, they'll mobilize a couple of swat teams. Just not worth it.

[Sunday_Gamer]

You're right on the focus addiction, so yes, quickening would work just the same. However it has been proven that the "astral beacon" theory is innacurate. Spells are visible yes, so the mage would definitely be visible along with all his spells from astral space, but since 3 successes are required in an ascensing roll just to figure out if the force of the spell is higher than your own magic attribute, we can deduce that the force of the spell does not affect "brightness" of the aura.

Sunday.

[Lucyfersam]

On the force, that's true, but your still sustaining 6 spells, and each spell can easily be identified as a separate aura, so there is no difficulty determining that. At that point, having 6 quickened spells I would say instantly puts you in the extreme threat category as it demonstrates you are a powerful mage even without taking the time to learn the force of every one of those spells.

Beyond that, it may be legal to have those spells if you have a permit, but not all establishments will accept that. Even with a conceal and carry permit, you can't walk into a major government building with a gun, and the same would hold true in my opinion of many spells (increase reflexes and armor come to mind). The same holds true for airplanes and similar environments. Having all of those spells up, even legally would still seriously impede you ability to get along in the world.

[Sunday_Gamer]

You're preaching to the choir, I take permits very seriously in my games. Likewise on the quickened spells, you wouldn't "glow" more brightly but all the auras would be visible and to anyone in the know, that does indeed make them sit up and pay attention.

Sunday.

[The White Dwarf]

Sunday, please drop your childish sarcasm at the door. That does nothing for either side, it just irritates people.

As has been said, if you have those 4 spells active with foci youll suffer addiction. If you use quickening you trade off passing through barriers, as well as spending more karma (technique+spell cost) (but less cash). If you opt to simply sustain them even with the focused concentration edge its a +4 tn penalty. You can choose to have an elemental sustain them, but half of those are health spells which wouldnt work. All that aside, even buffing yourself to those stats isnt too unheard of as its possible to start off with willpower/charisma of 9 or 10 base should you choose to do so.

Point being that should you decide to persue sustaining that many spells, each of the combinations that works does have a significant trade off. Not the least of which is the potential for astral encounters of some kind or another, again depending on how you handle such things in your game. Bottom line, the only example thus far is invalid for proving sustained spells to be problematic to a level that unbalances the game. Is there a better example?

[Curugul]

[Sunday_Gamer]

Uh, dwarf? What the hell are you talking about? Which sarcasm is that?

And I don't HAVE problematic mages in my games, for several reasons including the ones you yourself bring up. This ENTIRE THREAD was started because I read a fair amount about people having problems with mages being overpowered and then they usually describe to me a mage who wouldn't last 20 minutes in public in any game I've ever run or ran in.

Sunday.

[hobgoblin]

hmm, curugul, last time i checked the armor spell acts worn armor in that i just lowers a attacks power to a minimum of 2, as in its not hardend armor. as for invisibility, grab radar or ultrasound :) hell, lets just use a SAM and be done with it as this guy is flying...

im usre that if magic is as unbalanced as its claimed to be then it would have been picked up in a playtest sometime or other. a troll with ultrasound, smartlink and a panther should make short work of that mage :)