[X] My Assistant

[Crimson Jack]

Need a little clarification on how Dodge works with counting net successes.

We had a game tonight where my houngan got into a scruff with a crocodile in an astral quest. I was forced to use a bladed weapon (in which I have no skill) and had to default to Attribute. The croc attacks and achieves two successes. I go on Full Defense and only achieve one. So I attempt to Dodge and receive 1 success on my Dodge test.

Are the two individual successes counted together for the purposes of a clean miss in the Dodge test, or is there only 1 success since that's all I rolled on the Dodge roll? Danke.

[DarkShade]

huh? nobody at our table ever used dodge for melee.. I always thought dodging was only for range attacks???

DS

[toturi]

Jack, you could have use Combat Pool for your defender success test. There is no Dodge test in melee.

[Austere Emancipa...]

It is very clear from reading the Full Defense section on SR3.123-124 that the defender's successes from both the melee skill test and the Dodge test work together in countering the attackers successes. The attacker's "net successes" refers to those successes not already countered by the defender's successes on the melee test.

In other words, in the melee test, the crocodile rolled 2 successes and you rolled 1. Thus the crocodile has 1 net success. You then rolled 1 success, which counters the crocodile's one net success.

However, you still get hit, because you need to exceed the attacker's net successes with the Dodge test successes, not just match them. The way melee combat works, either with 0 (when it least 1 success was rolled) or 1 net successes for the attacker, the defender then has to roll a Damage Resistance test against the base Damage Code of the attack.

[RedmondLarry]

AE has it right.

The book, page 124, actually doesn't say what happens when the attacker and defender have an equal number of successes (just an oversight in editing). But to be consistent with Dodge tests in other parts of the book you have to do it as AE describes. The defender needs to exceed the attacker in order to be missed.

As some people on our team say "In Combat, tie goes to the attacker. In Magic, tie goes to the defender." It's a decent rule-of-thumb.

[Austere Emancipa...]

Yep. Not only do ties go the attacker in ranged combat Dodge tests, the rules for which are referred to for the Dodge test in Full Defense in melee, but they also go to the attacker in normal melee combat attack resolution.

I did not, in fact, know/remember that ties go to the attacker in ranged combat Dodge in canon until I read that paragraph again while I was answering this question. Currently, in my game, they go to the defender.

[toturi]

Dodge tests in Melee in Full Defense. Sorry my mistake.

[Mercer]

My group does it exactly the opposite, with ties going to the defender. We've always done it that way. I guess the theory is that if I guy gets one success on an attack, and you cancel one success, he's got zero successes. If he had rolled zero successes, he would have missed, so if he ends up with zero successes, he missed. Thats the logic, anyway. Its probably a hold over from 2ed unarmed (since a straight combat pool dodge is a 3ed convention), or maybe we just made it up. In any event, I can't wrap my brain around the idea of a guy hitting with "zero" successes.

[psykotisk_overle...]

I know it is a house rule, but I also use the same rule as Mercer.
When ties go to the defender, you have situations where characters actually miss in melee combat, without anyone going full defense.
Otherwise someone will land a good hit in every combat round, except for when no characters roll any successes, and at least one good hit every three seconds don't make much sense when compared to real world fighting situations.

[DocMortand]

I use the same house rule as well. Of course, in my case it's because I didn't know any better...and now that I do know, I'm going to stick with it.

It is a good thing to know about though, and I appreciate finding out about this.

[Crimson Jack]

Ok, thanks all. That's a satisfying answer. No one was up in arms about this or anything, we all just thought it was a little unclear.

I got my metamagic technique out of it anyways, so I'm a happy houngan. :spin: