To Kill, or Not to Kill. That is the Question., GM question Options

[GaiasWrath8]

OK, so I am running a game for a small group of 4 this weekend. They are all new and wanted to try something other than vampire. They have bugged me for weeks and I finaly agreed to turn them into Shadowrunners. LOL

The question I have is simple. Do you kill new players? I don't mean go out of the way to blast them, I mean if a new player does somthing stupid or if you know this next shot will kill him to you fuge some rolls (or what ever it takes) and let the new player live? Or do you let him die and hope he learns a lesson?

I ask because I have brought one group of D&D players over to the dark side and they were all smart. Every one went for cover and every one worked as a team (good part about playing d&D i guess). But I know two of the people in this coming up game are stupid, and I ran a Werewolf game for them a year ago and they got themselves killed in the first 2 hours.

Thanks for the insight. :cyber:

[Kagetenshi]

If they die at this point in the gaming experience, will they still be having fun?

The answers to both questions are one.

~J

[Ombre]

As a general rule, I don't think any game master worth the title should take killing PCs lightly...a player invests time and passion when creating a character (at least that's what I do) and may even have some expectations for the long run...
So unless your players do something really destructive for the game, I wouldn't recommend being merciless, especially if it's their first contact with the game. From this game session will depend the way they consider Shadowrun. don't forget it is quite a complex game, with a rich background, lots of cultural, historical and technical things to grasp. tactics are quite complex too since there are more angles to cover than usual with matrix, and especially magic to consider...

[Ol' Scratch]

Always let the dice fall where they may. To do otherwise is to nullify the point of using dice to begin with.

However, if they're new to the game, you should treat them accordingly. Don't be afraid to offer suggestions or warnings if they're about to do something their character (who would be much more familiar with the situation at hand than the player would) most likely wouldn't do. In fact, I usually "give" all players the Common Sense edge for free, even more experienced ones.

[GaiasWrath8]

Good point, I guess I should go soft on them...in the begining.

As for my veiws as a GM, I don't like to fuge rolls. I give them a fair chalenge and let it go from there. The dice tell all. :)

[Wounded Ronin]

I'd just suggest using the pregens at first so it's no worry if they all die. No time was wasted with character creation rules.

[GrinderTheTroll]

[Edward]

Give them all a limited version of the common sense edge. Only applies for things that would work in another setting. Only applies until they get the hang of the system and world and don’t charge them points fore it (or tell them they have it). For example you’re taking them on that run that involves a dragon egg when the great dragon shows up and they know it is a great dragon one of the players tries to kill it, you respond with something along the lies of “are you shore you want to do that your well out classed here and you know it” you say this because in D&D they could kill a dragon. Next time they want to kill a great dragon you let them die… horribly… screaming.

If the dice say they die when they didn’t do something stupid then that’s what the hand of good rule is for.

As a player I despise preges. What may be worth doing is having a 1 off run using pregens from the book and then doing character creation properly.

Edward

[Crimson Jack]

I've had the same gaming group for almost 9 years now. Whomever the GM may be on which ever game/system we're playing, the one unspoken rule of thumb we almost always respect is that the first game is a freebie. It sets the tone for the campaign and thus something of a teaser. Should any of us ever do something completely stupid and/or moronic, I doubt anyone would bat an eye at an untimely death. However, we wouldn't do something like that so...

When you're dealing with players from another gaming system, take into consideration the system that they've played in for the longest time. They are no doubt going to bring that level of play to your Shadowrun game. I've had the worst luck with d20 gamers out of any other system. Everything is hack and slash to everyone that I've ever invited to cross over. Frustrating, but comes with the territory.

I liked what Edward had to say about this issue. Also, DocFunk's free Common Sense Edge is a good idea. Good luck.

[Sepherim]

The key is to make them feel the universe, and the Shadowrun universe is deadly. Still, this doesn't mean you have to kill them, maybe modifying the roll so they have a Severe Wound each and are in trouble makes the point. Still, if you don't really want to modify rolls, and they really mess things up enough, remember two points:
-When someone reaches a Mortal wound, they don't die directly; instead, they have some time for DocWagon to come over... just let them have luck and a emergency DocWagon ambulance is near by.
-Then, if that ain't enough, you have the Hand of God. Burn all the Kharma Reserve (1 at this stage) and let the game go on.
With both things in mind, describing the universe as it is shouldn't be a problem for the players (which, since they come from Vampire, shouldn't have too many problems anyway). So, take time to create characters, 'cause this will allow them to blend into the world more naturally and easily.

[Fortune]

[tisoz]

I can't believe you would let a starting character have a PAC. ;)

[Mercer]

As a gm, I'm not out to kill characters. I try to present the obstacles, describe the setting accurately and vividly, and make sure the rules are applied fairly to all (pc and npc alike).

That said, I'm not out to keep anyone alive either.

Sometimes characters die because they do somehting stupid, and sometimes its because they were just unlucky. Chance is always a factor. As a player, I don't want a gm maliciously trying to kill me, or benevolently trying to keep me alive. As long as the gm is fair, I'm happy with the consequences.

Part of the game is gambling. Instead of betting money you're betting the time you put into a character and the desire to keep playing it. But if you can't lose, then its no fun winning.

[DarkShade]

for my current SR3 group when they started I told them that as they were new I would give them a break, this consisted of 3 things.

1) they could always ask me for advice on what their options would mean <as target nrs etc, what will likely happen if... >
2) I gave them a one use only `undo combat`, meaning they could go back to before the combat started and tackle it differently.

3) I gave them a one use only undo action, with which they could undo one action they tried after realising it was silly.. <I spit at the mafia bosses`face, I flip a finger at the cop (while being SINless) that kind of thing..>

4) I picked a simple adventure. and kept notes, then at the end told them what else they could have done, where any `mistakes`were made etc...

then I was left free to GM in my usual harsh way. I find this is far better than going easy for a while, as pcs may have problems adjusting to when it is for real. <though nr 2 breaks the game a bit, but hey.. new players..& some of them came from a `pampering`GM.. you know the type, where your character absolutely CANNOT die even if he tries..>

DS

[JACK THE CHIPPER]

That's a really cool idea.

Hope it's OK if I steal it for my new group. ;)

[Sandoval Smith]

Go with what keeps the game fun. Getting greased in the throwaway fight against some gangers would probably suck royally, and especially if they put thought into their characters it would be a really lame way to die. On the other hand, if the game is building up to infiltrate a dangerous target for a big, long odds showdown, then the threat of dying shouldn't be ignored. Just have something prepared for players to do if their PCs kick off early.

And especially for new players, I would (and have in other systems) allowed mid game Q&A sessions with the GM about what next action would be approrpiate. It gets them used to the nuances of the system, and allows them to get a feel for the game atmosphere.

[Cable]

Always a touchy subject. Mostly PC deaths should be planned of course. But sometimes when you have a huge random damage roll its hard not to want to kill the players, to remain true to the game. I definitly wouldn't plan to kill a new gruop of players, this would just discourage them.

Although, a game where all the PCs die is lots of fun for veterans...

[GaiasWrath8]

Thanks so much for all your insite. I will use what I have learned here and come up with a good way to break them in slow.

Thanks again.

[Mercer]

[paul_HArkonen]

[GaiasWrath8]

I have only planed the death of one PC (with out his knowledge) and I caught him with my resenlty x-girl friend. LOL.

Anyways. I normaly just run things by the dice. I am GOD in this world when I run it, and just like god, I sit on my butt and let the players make all the desitions and rolls. I just put the world there, its up to them what they do with it.
:D

[Sepherim]

Well, there are reasons for killing characters. If a gaming group, for example, has been going for long and all characters are very tough... but only one of them survives one run, it may be time to kill/retire him to adjust the power level according to the new characters. Or maybe, a good story can only have a propper end in a gritty-dark terrible way: the death of it's hero on it's final showdown.

I remember quite happilly how I lost my favourite character in Legend of the Five Rings. I had been trapped socially to go to a room where all my enemies were. I was a Scorpion, and so were they, so they planned on taking me alive and torturing me so I'd tell them where my daimyo was... and I committed suicide to keep the info safe. Talking afterwards with my GM (some time after), he told me I really had no way out of that situation, and he had planned it (though he hadn't thought I would commit suicide, I'd just die after being tortured. But I wasn't pissed off at all. My character had died the way he should (for loyalty), and had a great death, full of meaining to it in his story, and saving the life of his Clan's Daimyo (Shoju). No other story could have been better than that tragic sacrifice, 'cause my enemy was then defeated, and I won, even after death.

So, planning PC's deaths is a good way for killing them, so their story is wrapped up appropriately, complete, and unparallel. Of course, this doesn't mean that you have to plan killing each game, or kill because who you like the most. You have to kill according to the story.

I disagree with what has been said yet. A GM is no referee, or isn't only that. He's also a storyteller, and that what counts most in the end. If that means cheating, killing, helping, or whatever, go with it!

[Mercer]

[Edward]

I hate when GMs kill a character to end the game or restore a balance of power. It is unfair to the person that spent so much effort and actually managed to come threw alive and with powerful equipment and uber skills when everybody else died.

Of cause it would also be unfair to make others play stating characters beside the 200+ karma character or for the GM to have to continue to run a game he didn’t want to because the characters are to powerful for the type of game he ants to run.

There is pride to be taken in retiring a character from play (this dose not mean the character retires from his life as a shadow runner, just he is no longer played) and it shits me to tears when a GM takes that away because he would rather kill the characters than just tell the players he wont run with that character any more.

On the other hand there is also pride to be taken in a well earned death and I dislike when a GM fudges dice to deny me that as well. But not as much as when he kills the character ween it was not earned or dictated by the dice.

On a more general note a GM is both a story teller and a referee. The art of a GM is balancing these 2 roles.

Edward

GaiasWrath8 “I have only planed the death of one PC (with out his knowledge) and I caught him with my resenlty x-girl friend. LOL.”

Compared to some I know a most mild reaction.

[wargear]

For a brand-spanking new group of players, I would recommend teaching them a few lessons in Lone Star 101 (just why we hate and fear them).

Have Lone Star employ non-lethal measures against a new group. Lethal force should be reserved for dangerous and reknowned teams.

Once captured, have the Star beat, torture, imprison, humiliate, and in general bastardise the players...and then release them with a shiny new SIN and a parole bracelet (zaps them if they are naughty).

This should put them in the right frame of mind for all future Lone Star encounters.