[MrJBlackBook] Contacts, Linked Attributes Options

[tisoz]

I flipped through the book in the game store and saw all these contacts. Thought, "Cool," and plunked down my $24.95 + 6% tax.

I get home and start looking at them and they all seem broken. If I wanted a description and some PFA stats, I could have done it myself a whole lot cheaper. I think I've gotten results as good as these by rolling 1D6 when I needed a stat.

I expected a quality product that somewhat followed the game mechanics. I can believe that they aren't all starting characters, but just look at all the Intelligence and Charisma linked skills. They are consistently over and above the linked attribute, and the total knowledge skill points are almost always in excess of 5 x the Intelligence.

How about a rigger/decker with 1 datajack and no switch. Mr. Fix-It is silly. Every Knowledge skill is above his Intelligence and 7 of 11 Active skills are over their linked attribute.

At first I thought, "Well, that's going to get errataed." But the more I look the more prevalent it is. I'm really disappointed.

Did you forget about that linked attribute rule of character creation, Robyn?

Did someone point this out previousely? I heard someone mention the contacts were worthless, but I figured he meant for him, not that they were silly broken.

[mfb]

uh, where did you get the idea that these were made with the character creation rules? and where did you get the idea that skills can't be higher than the linked attribute? it's more expensive, sure, but it's not impossible or even unlikely.

[Synner]

Not to mention why would NPCs have to obey character creation rules at all?

[tisoz]

True on both counts.

I guess the real question though is, "Why should I pay good money for NPC characters that don't follow character creation rules, and have little basis for making sense concerning skills and linked attributes?" I guess because previous contacts did make some sense I expected a bit more. When someone asked me about the book, they shared my dismay at the contacts being done that way. So if I'm a stupid, ignorant, ungrateful FanPro cutomer, at least I know another felt likewise.

Then again maybe you missed my point:

[Sepherim]

Basically putting this, NPCs are made to be coherent, not "maximized". Why not raise it's attribute? Well, not every averadge store-seller on the street has Intelligence 5 because they have Grociery Handling 8 after working on it all life. And why do they have more than Intx5 intelligence skills? Because people learn in their life, and NPCs are made to be normal people, not PCs.

Sorry if this sounded harsh. It wasn't my intention, but it's been a long day...

[mfb]

well, it's not like most NPCs are sitting down and trying to min-max their own stats. and, well, NPC stats have never been one of SR's strong suites. i haven't seen a book yet that's come out with all of its NPC stats intact; there's always several NPC stat blocks that have something missing, or something that shouldn't be there. there's no real point in getting mad about MJLBB's occasional stat flub; if you get an SR book, you're going to get some quirky NPC stats.

and, hey, define 'cheaper'. maybe you've got time to pull stats, personalities, equipment lists, and cyberware from your butt, every time your players talk to someone you didn't expect them to. i don't, and i play 99% of my games in play-by-post format.

[Fortune]

The thing is, it's not even really cheaper for Mr Grocer to raise his Intelligence and also raise his Beef Prices skill, when all he needs is that skill in the first place. IRL, there are a lot of Charisma 3 people out there with Negotiations or Intimidation skills much higher than their attribute.

I actually prefer the NPCs be laid out in this manner, as opposed to all having god-like attributes to support one or two job-related skills.

[tisoz]

[Fortune]

It isn't supposed to be Uber-Contacts'R'Us. They are only supposed to be representative ... a general example of a Contact. One single example of this type of person in the Sprawl. Of course there are others, and they will differ from these ... some to a great extent. The whole book is written with the less-experienced GM in mind, and in the case of needing a Bartender or Fixer on the fly, these fill the bill quite nicely. If the GM feels that the Contact needs a particular skill, room has been left for him to give it to him worry-free, or indeed make any other adjustments to brong them on line with their game world.

[Ol' Scratch]

You also realize, of course, that you're not forced to limit your skill ratings by your linked attribute even during character creation, right? It's completely legal to have a character with a Charisma of 3 and an Etiquette 6 (15 BPs). It's even cheaper to do it that way than it is to get Charisma 6 and Etiquette 6 (18 BPs).

Just because many players don't do that, it doesn't mean they can't.

[mfb]

gosh, tisoz, you're exactly right--i did advocate rubber-stamp approval of every Shadowrun product in my last post, when i said things like "i haven't seen a book yet that's come out with all of its NPC stats intact" and "if you get an SR book, you're going to get some quirky NPC stats". how perceptive of you to read between the lines and understand what i was actually trying to say, when i said the exact opposite.

like i said above, the reason these NPCs didn't do that is that they aren't trying to min-max themselves. they don't have to books in front of them, to tell them that it'd be more economical, in terms of karma, to purchase some tailored pheremones and increase their base Cha score. maybe that guy's got something against bioware. maybe the designer wanted to build a character who is a totally unlikeable jerk, but who knows how to talk all pretty when it comes to biz. maybe it's lame and unrealistic, not to mention incredibly time-consuming, to max out every NPC stat block into the most efficient character possible.

[tisoz]

I'm not saying they can't be done this way.

I realize you can exceed the linked attribute.

I wasn't directing the rubber stamp comment at anyone in particular, more like everyone who sees this as no problem what-so-ever.

If this book is indeed geared toward new GMs (heaven forbid they are targeting a segment of an already minority segment of the market) why not try to get good, representative NPCs? I don't think the troll fixer example I cited is a well built or thought through NPC, and since this section was the reason I paid my money, I am stating my disappointment. If you can't understand or accept that, I'll go pout by myself. ;)

I'm also wondering how the Karma pools were determined. It almost looks like based on need for karma pool. I understand it could be set at anything, and there is no right or wrong value, I'm just wondering about why they settled on what found its way to print.

[Patrick Goodman]

Even if they're built using the chargen rules (and from what little I know, they were), who says they're starting characters? Where does it say that none of these NPCs has earned Karma and, Heaven forbid, improved a skill or ability score? Frankly, I don't see the problem here. At all.

[Siege]

Truthfully, neither do I.

Of course, I rather liked the old "Sprawl Sites" contact approach that used basic templates and made minor modifications as a point of reference.

I keep meaning to go back, put all the old contacts to paper and write a long sheet of potential contacts and the templates to reference with notations.

Eventually.

-Siege

[mfb]

yeah, but Sprawl Sites also introduced haircuts as a viable way to deal with rival gangs.

[Siege]

Only in a specific setting and under a specific set of conditions.

Which is true of most things. :grinbig:

-Siege

[mintcar]

I think everybody should get applause for being so civil in their comments. I will follow the good example.

lets see.. I could not agree with any critique of an npc that is based on how it´s not the most effective character.

<<<edit>>> no sarcasm intended (just a little for fun :)) I really think that tisoz could have fared much worse, and that would have been undeserved.

[tisoz]

[Patrick Goodman]

Your assertion was that they were broken because they didn't appear to follow the rules for starting player characters. Even though you appear to acknowledge that they aren't all starting characters, though, you go on to say that they should all meet the rules for starting characters. Specifically, you go after their Knowledge skills and say that the NPCs are broken because they have more Knowledge skill points than 5 x INT.

I'm saying you're wrong, and that the contact NPCs aren't broken. You yourself acknowledged that they're not starting characters, so how can you fault them for advancing? There's nothing in the rules that says that 5 x INT is all the Knowledge skills you'll ever get.

Basically, I'm seeing you whine about not liking the conctacts, which is fair enough; you paid your money, you have that privilege. But you need to figure out whether you think they're starting characters, in which case you're right, they're broken. If that's not what you think, though, you need to drop it or show, in excruciating specifics, how they're broken. You can't have it both ways; either they're broken starting characters, or they're not broken unless you can show us something specific that is broken about them.

[Sepherim]

[tisoz]

Ok, the contacts are legally created and they have relevant skills and attributes as well as gear.

The descriptions are awesome and the plot hooks are great.

The book is a godsend for new GMs and experienced GMs as well as players will want to buy it for their Shadowrun collection.

[Birdy]

The NPC section:


Are the NPC useful to flesh out chance contacts? Yes, by all means

Are the "rules-legal"? Maybe, never checked them

Are they "overpowered"? No, don't think so. Good at their jobs but that's it.

Are they useful "character/vilain" templates? Nope, too specialised. But they're IMHO not meant for that

Could I have done them myself? Possibly, with a lot of work

Is the chapter worth buying the book? Nope. None of the chapters is. But the sum is bigger than the parts here.


Overall I rate the book in my 10 most useful RPG materials. Behind my "Tanks of the world" but befor my "10 ft. pole"

Birdy

[Namergon]