You want to chamber it for what?!, Trolls and .44 automag SMGs Options

[lorthazar]

I have a question. Considering the size and general physical prowess of a Troll would Ares, Magnum esearch, and many other gun companies start markets firearms built around bigger loads. After all a troll can make an assault rifle out of the Stoner Ares GPHMG, so why not .44 Automag SMG's, and .50BMG revolvers?

[mfb]

i've done that. you use a rifle or shotgun frame, out of CC, knock it down (improved conceal, whatever) to Conc 4-5, make it metahuman-modded, and give it to a troll. trolls don't take the +2 TN mod for using a two-handed weapon in one hand. technically, it's still a rifle or a shotgun, but it looks like a troll-size pistol.

[sidartha]

[mfb]

hah! a human can take a lot more than 7 .40 cal rounds. humans have 10 fingers, after all, and then there's all those toes...

[sidartha]

I meant center mass.
Props though on finding the loophole and at the same time making a gruesome comment. ;)

[mfb]

gruesome holes are my specialty.

[DrJest]

I still remember reading an article in an old sci-fi RPG magazine about how the lethality of guns was over-rated. The writer quoted examples from the San Diego border patrol; one of them was a poor sod who took something in the order of six rounds of 9mm, four of .45 and a couple .44M. He spent six months in hospital and, at the time of writing, was back on the job.

A few months later, I discovered that the bloke who ran my favourite record shop was ex-Drug Squad. Intrigues, I asked him why he left. Apparently he took a blast from shotgun during a raid.

Oh yeah, and his comment always makes me laugh. He says when he came round the corner and found himself staring down the barrels, "the thought that crossed my mind was - this would be a really good time to retire".

[Austere Emancipa...]

If you put the round exactly center mass and your target is symmetrical, he's an extremely lucky SoB to survive a single 9x19mm, .40 S&W or anything else for that matter, with the round hitting the spine by default. If you just meant hitting the torso, well, you can shoot holes along the side of a human torso with a handcannon for quite a while before your target dies.

It's all about the shot placement, after all. Just with the .44 Magnum you can shoot 0.1" further away from the vital target to put him down, and your wound cavity is something like 20% bigger in area so you get more bleeding when you do hit the big arteries in the thoracic cavity.

[DrJest]

Exactly. And most people just blaze away without any thought for shot placement. What was it that fire combat study by the New York Police came up with some years back? Something like, the average gun fight takes place at a distance of ten yards in poor light between untrained opponents, and nobody get seriously hurt.

The concept of a gun being a deadly weapon in just anybody's hands is one of those urban myths, like the idea that somebody solidly clocked in the head or groin will just get up and keep fighting.

[Fortune]

[Stumps]

Actually, DrJest is more correct.

The FBI runs on a training that states a standard of firing at least 3 rounds and assuming for 7 rounds to bring a person down.

3 rounds will be garanteed to be fired, and they are trained to fire no less.
7 ronds is what they expect it to take to make the person actually stop attacking and hopefully drop to the ground.

The guy that was being talked to (I can't remember his place in the FBI) was saying that he's seen people run after getting shot 10 times in the chest and back, and that wasn't something that appeared as too rare for him to see.
But the idea of one shot, one kill, he was saying, is completely fabricated hollywood/tv myth.

He was saying that if anything, after one shot, the person will often times stand in shock if they don't keep going at what they were doing.
Adrenalin is a bitch of an enemy.

All these people will probably die later very easily if not medically treated, but in combat they remain completely functional unless you pack in alot of ammo very quickly so their system can't over-ride the shock with more adrenalin.

And god help you if they're on hiped up drugs. Then you just keep firing until they drop.
There's a good reason that weapons come with more than one round in them.

[Austere Emancipa...]

[mintcar]

this would make the lethality of guns in Shadowrun pretty acurate, wouldn´t it? To put a regular guy down it takes: 10+ rounds from a light pistol, 2-3 rounds from a hand cannon or a single shot with a hand cannon backed by 8 skill dice and 6 combat pool dice, and maybe a karmic reroll.

I just know some of you guys are going to throw a lot of examples and reconnings in my face, showing me how wrong I am. Go ahead, make my day :D Your all about numbers arn´t you?

[Austere Emancipa...]

[Crusher Bob]

Yep, works ok if you change everything :rotfl: The way SR combat is setup (quite abstract) makes it rather hard to add some rules to 'enhance realism' without screwing things up.

The other problem is that SR does not differentiate between 'eventually fatal' and 'instantly fatal' wounds. If you hit someone in the liver or spleen with a JHP round, they will probably bleed to death, but they still have plenty of time to give you an eventually fatal wound too.

Most firearms don't have too much trouble producing eventually fatal wounds (i.e. would be fatal without medical attention). Producing wounds that are 'stopping'/instantly fatal is all about shot placement (or just blowing huge chunks of meat out of the target works pretty well too). Since you can really blow huge chunks of meat out of someone with a pistol, you have to go for shot placement.

[FlakJacket]

Damn, a thread just like this one came up a while back but I just can't find the bloody thing. Raygun and a couple of the other gun enthusiasts pretty much laid out how much a troll could handle firearms-wise compared to humans.

[Stumps]

[Austere Emancipa...]

FlackJacket: Do you mean this one?

[hobgoblin]

there are basicly 2 things with sr's damage system that makes it hard to become realistic to the degree some people on this forum wants.

first is the use of levels of damage rather then numbers. this leads to odd jumps like from a light pistol to a heavy and so on.

second is the totaly missing concept of bleeding outside of a deadly wound.

[Critias]

[Stumps]

Personally (just read through that whole post you linked) I'm all for a full on marketed Troll pistol line.
Why the hell not?
Who gives a shit about possibles of marketing!

Who has a Troll character or is going to have one that's veiwing this thread?
Now, out of you, who wants a Troll gun from Troll-Guns-Am-Us?

I know I do.

[DrJest]

I don't know what the equivalent in the US is, but over here we have a shop chain called "The Long, the Short and the Tall", and another one called "Long Tall Sally". These are clothing shops catering to gentlemen of unusual height (tall or short) in the first instance, and unusually tall ladies in the second (my best man, who was in fact a gay girl, used to get clothes from Long Tall Sally, but then she was 6' 2").

Sooo....

Set the Wayback Machine for 2064. You just know some bright spark at Ares (is it Ares that own Weapons World? I think so) is going to come up with a new chain of speciality arms stores. I can see it now - "The Long and the Short Of It". Specialists in ultra-chunky and ultra-compact weapons.

[Stumps]

A .3006 in pistol form, in the hands of a Troll, pressed firmly against the temple of the Rigger's temple and the orders, "Drive!" put a whole new meaning to the phrase "Palm Pilot".

[Toptomcat]

So cutting down a Rifle or LMG chassis would suffice for one-handed firing.
What about troll-sized rifles, which would be able to fire ammunition bigger than today's biggest AMRs? Will anyone here stat those for us?
And troll-sized assault rifles, what would you do there? Cut down a vehicle cannon?
God Forbid troll-sized Assault Cannons.

[mfb]

i think machine guns and assault cannon fill that role just fine. note that when you cut down a rifle or shotgun for use as a troll handgun, the troll still used the shotgun or rifle skill. same with MMG "assault rifles" and assault cannon "hunting rifles".