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> You want to chamber it for what?!, Trolls and .44 automag SMGs
lorthazar
post Nov 13 2004, 04:36 AM
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I have a question. Considering the size and general physical prowess of a Troll would Ares, Magnum esearch, and many other gun companies start markets firearms built around bigger loads. After all a troll can make an assault rifle out of the Stoner Ares GPHMG, so why not .44 Automag SMG's, and .50BMG revolvers?
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mfb
post Nov 13 2004, 05:05 AM
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i've done that. you use a rifle or shotgun frame, out of CC, knock it down (improved conceal, whatever) to Conc 4-5, make it metahuman-modded, and give it to a troll. trolls don't take the +2 TN mod for using a two-handed weapon in one hand. technically, it's still a rifle or a shotgun, but it looks like a troll-size pistol.
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sidartha
post Nov 13 2004, 05:07 AM
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QUOTE
why not .44 Automag SMG's, and .50BMG revolvers?

We have those now.
Given that normal humans now can take upwards of seven .40 cal rounds and live to tell about the experience, and how the average human body rating is a mere 3 compared to 9M out of a heavy pistol I would make the judgement that the kind of upgrade you are talking about has allready taken place.
Just My Opinion :)
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mfb
post Nov 13 2004, 07:35 AM
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hah! a human can take a lot more than 7 .40 cal rounds. humans have 10 fingers, after all, and then there's all those toes...
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sidartha
post Nov 13 2004, 08:07 AM
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I meant center mass.
Props though on finding the loophole and at the same time making a gruesome comment. ;)
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mfb
post Nov 13 2004, 08:10 AM
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gruesome holes are my specialty.
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DrJest
post Nov 13 2004, 10:20 AM
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I still remember reading an article in an old sci-fi RPG magazine about how the lethality of guns was over-rated. The writer quoted examples from the San Diego border patrol; one of them was a poor sod who took something in the order of six rounds of 9mm, four of .45 and a couple .44M. He spent six months in hospital and, at the time of writing, was back on the job.

A few months later, I discovered that the bloke who ran my favourite record shop was ex-Drug Squad. Intrigues, I asked him why he left. Apparently he took a blast from shotgun during a raid.

Oh yeah, and his comment always makes me laugh. He says when he came round the corner and found himself staring down the barrels, "the thought that crossed my mind was - this would be a really good time to retire".
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Austere Emancipa...
post Nov 13 2004, 10:29 AM
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If you put the round exactly center mass and your target is symmetrical, he's an extremely lucky SoB to survive a single 9x19mm, .40 S&W or anything else for that matter, with the round hitting the spine by default. If you just meant hitting the torso, well, you can shoot holes along the side of a human torso with a handcannon for quite a while before your target dies.

It's all about the shot placement, after all. Just with the .44 Magnum you can shoot 0.1" further away from the vital target to put him down, and your wound cavity is something like 20% bigger in area so you get more bleeding when you do hit the big arteries in the thoracic cavity.
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DrJest
post Nov 13 2004, 10:34 AM
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Exactly. And most people just blaze away without any thought for shot placement. What was it that fire combat study by the New York Police came up with some years back? Something like, the average gun fight takes place at a distance of ten yards in poor light between untrained opponents, and nobody get seriously hurt.

The concept of a gun being a deadly weapon in just anybody's hands is one of those urban myths, like the idea that somebody solidly clocked in the head or groin will just get up and keep fighting.
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Fortune
post Nov 13 2004, 11:02 AM
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QUOTE (mfb)
gruesome holes are my specialty.

Keep your sexual preferences to yourself! ;)
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Stumps
post Nov 13 2004, 11:06 AM
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Actually, DrJest is more correct.

The FBI runs on a training that states a standard of firing at least 3 rounds and assuming for 7 rounds to bring a person down.

3 rounds will be garanteed to be fired, and they are trained to fire no less.
7 ronds is what they expect it to take to make the person actually stop attacking and hopefully drop to the ground.

The guy that was being talked to (I can't remember his place in the FBI) was saying that he's seen people run after getting shot 10 times in the chest and back, and that wasn't something that appeared as too rare for him to see.
But the idea of one shot, one kill, he was saying, is completely fabricated hollywood/tv myth.

He was saying that if anything, after one shot, the person will often times stand in shock if they don't keep going at what they were doing.
Adrenalin is a bitch of an enemy.

All these people will probably die later very easily if not medically treated, but in combat they remain completely functional unless you pack in alot of ammo very quickly so their system can't over-ride the shock with more adrenalin.

And god help you if they're on hiped up drugs. Then you just keep firing until they drop.
There's a good reason that weapons come with more than one round in them.
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Austere Emancipa...
post Nov 13 2004, 01:55 PM
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QUOTE (Stumps)
The FBI runs on a training that states a standard of firing at least 3 rounds and assuming for 7 rounds to bring a person down.

If you shoot completely random locations in the average human torso with something like a .40 S&W JHP, you could probably figure out the statistical expected amount of shots fired before a human is physically incapacitated. It would not surprise me if that number were somewhere around 7. But that does not mean that incapacitating a human with a single shot to the torso is not possible. Make a decent hole in the heart, the aorta, the carotid or brachiocephalic arteries, and your target is going to go down within 20 seconds, 40 tops. Crack his spine and he's out immediately.

These are not very likely results on a randomly placed shot in the torso, but they can happen. After that, you're just hoping you hit some important arteries to cause enough loss of blood pressure to black him out. Indeed with enough adrenaline and drugs that can take quite a while. Shooting big-ass holes in the target would help somewhat.

However, SR is too abstract to make use of a statistic like "It takes 7 randomly placed shots from a .40 S&W pistol firing JHPs in the average human torso to physically incapacitate the target, on average". We haven't got SR equivalents for calibers, ammo types (the few ammo types mentioned in SR generally don't make any fucking sense at all, so they can't be used) or shot placement.

And last I heard, most agencies were still training with the principle Shoot Them Till They Drop, Or Better Yet, Till They Stop Twitching. Giving some sort of pseudostatistic like "it takes seven rounds" might help drive home the point that you should fire at them a lot.

Anyway, since the point here were troll weapons, it makes things a bit different. If you assume they'll be shooting at other trolls, .44 Automag "SMGs" (or more likely troll-modified battle rifles chambered for similar or even more powerful calibers) would make sense. You'd need a powerful round to penetrate deep enough into the bone-plated torso of a troll, and the extra recoil and size won't bother the troll that wields it. A .50 BMG revolver would still be absolutely pointless, the .500 S&W Magnum and similar rounds would be plenty.

mfb's suggestion on how to work this into a canon game of SR works wonderfully. Just use the Firearm Design rules in CC to build these guns from all kinds of base types. The Sport Rifle and Shotgun mfb mentioned are probably the most useful.

This post has been edited by Austere Emancipator: Nov 13 2004, 02:31 PM
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mintcar
post Nov 13 2004, 02:13 PM
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this would make the lethality of guns in Shadowrun pretty acurate, wouldnīt it? To put a regular guy down it takes: 10+ rounds from a light pistol, 2-3 rounds from a hand cannon or a single shot with a hand cannon backed by 8 skill dice and 6 combat pool dice, and maybe a karmic reroll.

I just know some of you guys are going to throw a lot of examples and reconnings in my face, showing me how wrong I am. Go ahead, make my day :D Your all about numbers arnīt you?
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Austere Emancipa...
post Nov 13 2004, 02:30 PM
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QUOTE (mintcar)
this would make the lethality of guns in Shadowrun pretty acurate, wouldnīt it?

For me, I think the biggest issue is the the huge difference between a Light and a Moderate, and thus between Light Pistols and Heavy Pistols, and the fact that I'd rate most common RL pistol calibers somewhere between (doing 2 boxes of damage). Other than that, especially if you tweak the Powers a bit, ignore armor, perhaps even change a Damage Level here and there, and keep in mind how abstract SR is, it works out sort of OK.
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Crusher Bob
post Nov 13 2004, 04:26 PM
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Yep, works ok if you change everything :rotfl: The way SR combat is setup (quite abstract) makes it rather hard to add some rules to 'enhance realism' without screwing things up.

The other problem is that SR does not differentiate between 'eventually fatal' and 'instantly fatal' wounds. If you hit someone in the liver or spleen with a JHP round, they will probably bleed to death, but they still have plenty of time to give you an eventually fatal wound too.

Most firearms don't have too much trouble producing eventually fatal wounds (i.e. would be fatal without medical attention). Producing wounds that are 'stopping'/instantly fatal is all about shot placement (or just blowing huge chunks of meat out of the target works pretty well too). Since you can really blow huge chunks of meat out of someone with a pistol, you have to go for shot placement.
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FlakJacket
post Nov 13 2004, 07:01 PM
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Damn, a thread just like this one came up a while back but I just can't find the bloody thing. Raygun and a couple of the other gun enthusiasts pretty much laid out how much a troll could handle firearms-wise compared to humans.
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Stumps
post Nov 13 2004, 07:08 PM
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QUOTE
Anyway, since the point here were troll weapons, it makes things a bit different. If you assume they'll be shooting at other trolls, .44 Automag "SMGs" (or more likely troll-modified battle rifles chambered for similar or even more powerful calibers) would make sense. You'd need a powerful round to penetrate deep enough into the bone-plated torso of a troll, and the extra recoil and size won't bother the troll that wields it. A .50 BMG revolver would still be absolutely pointless, the .500 S&W Magnum and similar rounds would be plenty.

Why do I keep having images of HellBoy run through my head?
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Austere Emancipa...
post Nov 13 2004, 07:11 PM
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FlackJacket: Do you mean this one?
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hobgoblin
post Nov 13 2004, 07:37 PM
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there are basicly 2 things with sr's damage system that makes it hard to become realistic to the degree some people on this forum wants.

first is the use of levels of damage rather then numbers. this leads to odd jumps like from a light pistol to a heavy and so on.

second is the totaly missing concept of bleeding outside of a deadly wound.
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Critias
post Nov 13 2004, 07:50 PM
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QUOTE (Austere Emancipator)
QUOTE (Stumps)
The FBI runs on a training that states a standard of firing at least 3 rounds and assuming for 7 rounds to bring a person down.

But that does not mean that incapacitating a human with a single shot to the torso is not possible.

Yeah, but just 'cause it's possible doesn't mean I'd bet my life on it, and stop pulling the trigger. ;)
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Stumps
post Nov 13 2004, 08:02 PM
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Personally (just read through that whole post you linked) I'm all for a full on marketed Troll pistol line.
Why the hell not?
Who gives a shit about possibles of marketing!

Who has a Troll character or is going to have one that's veiwing this thread?
Now, out of you, who wants a Troll gun from Troll-Guns-Am-Us?

I know I do.
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DrJest
post Nov 13 2004, 08:15 PM
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I don't know what the equivalent in the US is, but over here we have a shop chain called "The Long, the Short and the Tall", and another one called "Long Tall Sally". These are clothing shops catering to gentlemen of unusual height (tall or short) in the first instance, and unusually tall ladies in the second (my best man, who was in fact a gay girl, used to get clothes from Long Tall Sally, but then she was 6' 2").

Sooo....

Set the Wayback Machine for 2064. You just know some bright spark at Ares (is it Ares that own Weapons World? I think so) is going to come up with a new chain of speciality arms stores. I can see it now - "The Long and the Short Of It". Specialists in ultra-chunky and ultra-compact weapons.
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Stumps
post Nov 13 2004, 08:52 PM
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A .3006 in pistol form, in the hands of a Troll, pressed firmly against the temple of the Rigger's temple and the orders, "Drive!" put a whole new meaning to the phrase "Palm Pilot".
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Toptomcat
post Nov 13 2004, 09:03 PM
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So cutting down a Rifle or LMG chassis would suffice for one-handed firing.
What about troll-sized rifles, which would be able to fire ammunition bigger than today's biggest AMRs? Will anyone here stat those for us?
And troll-sized assault rifles, what would you do there? Cut down a vehicle cannon?
God Forbid troll-sized Assault Cannons.
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mfb
post Nov 13 2004, 09:04 PM
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i think machine guns and assault cannon fill that role just fine. note that when you cut down a rifle or shotgun for use as a troll handgun, the troll still used the shotgun or rifle skill. same with MMG "assault rifles" and assault cannon "hunting rifles".
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