 You want to chamber it for what?!, Trolls and .44 automag SMGs |
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 Nov 15 2004, 04:07 AM
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#51
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Target  Group: Members Posts: 9 Joined: 26-February 02 Member No.: 930  |
As far as target market - the Honda Viking was specifically marketed to trolls and orks. There is a market, and with the tech available in SR, small production runs are easy and nearly as profitable.
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Nov 15 2004, 06:08 AM
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#52
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Man In The Machine Group: Dumpshocked Posts: 2,264 Joined: 26-February 02 From: I-495 S Member No.: 1,105 |
Thank you, oh great maker of puns! But seriously folks, if you really want to go the 1 shot kill route, just get a FMJ .10 guage shotgun. Only, what, a .82" shell? Really big holes? Or say screw the 'man-portable' crap, and get a crew serviced 37mm cannon. |
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Nov 15 2004, 06:11 AM
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#53
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Manus Celer Dei Group: Dumpshocked Posts: 17,008 Joined: 30-December 02 From: Boston Member No.: 3,802 |
Doesn't Siege have a lock on that title?
~J |
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Nov 15 2004, 06:35 AM
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#54
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Runner Group: Members Posts: 2,901 Joined: 19-June 03 Member No.: 4,775 |
Why stop at 10? Kid I know has an 8 gauge he got from his grandfather, made in the good ol' days before 12 became the popular American standard.
[edit] There's seriously no limit to how ludicrous you make this. Big Troll Guns is essentially a font from which no limit of stupid firearms ideas can flow. So bring on the 8 gauge revolvers and .50 AE SMGs (or .50 Beowulf, as I'm sure Raygun'll jump in and link that if I don't). This post has been edited by Arethusa: Nov 15 2004, 07:11 AM |
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Nov 15 2004, 06:40 AM
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#55
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Immortal Elf Group: Members Posts: 11,410 Joined: 1-October 03 From: Pittsburgh Member No.: 5,670 |
impact, there's a pretty big difference between something perfectly legal and commonly-purchased, like motorcycles, and something illegal and rarely-sold, like an assault cannon.
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Nov 15 2004, 06:50 AM
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#56
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Mostly Harmless Group: Dumpshocked Posts: 937 Joined: 26-February 02 From: 44.662,-63.469 Member No.: 176 |
.775". 19.68mm. Because of the way shotguns work, you may have to be a bit closer than you'd want in order to hit what you're aiming at (smoothbore and all). And, while there currently isn't any kind of FMJ bullet load made for any kind of shotgun shell (as far as I'm aware), I guess there certainly could be, but it would likely involve a sabot load to a smaller caliber. It might even be possible to load a 10 gauge shell (or even 3.5" 12 gauge magnums) with .50 HEIAP bullets.
mfb, I'm with you, man. But you're paddling upstream. Once you get into the Big Guns For Trolls discussion, it's pretty much time to abandon all practicality. The current gets rediculous. These days I find it's better to grab a tube and a cooler full of beer and just float downstream, detached and content. But maybe that's just me. |
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Nov 15 2004, 07:05 AM
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#57
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Immortal Elf Group: Members Posts: 11,410 Joined: 1-October 03 From: Pittsburgh Member No.: 5,670 |
*sigh* yeah.
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Nov 15 2004, 09:01 AM
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#58
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Running Target Group: Members Posts: 1,133 Joined: 3-October 04 Member No.: 6,722 |
Oh my God in Heaven... I thought those links would be to SR fansite guns... people are actually manufacturing .50 automatic rifles and boasting about how light they are... come on, resident experts, can you tell me about the frickin' recoil on one of those! How the hell would you keep it on target? It's got to be some kind of uber-testosteronal thing, right? |
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Nov 15 2004, 09:51 AM
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#59
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Runner Group: Members Posts: 2,598 Joined: 15-March 03 From: Hong Kong Member No.: 4,253 |
As long as the gun is gas operated and you are firing in single shot, the recoil shouldn't be too bad, though the AR-15 platform may be a bit too light... The recoil will probably be somewhat 'mushy' (like a gas operated shotgun) as compared to the 'crisp' recoil you get with say... a bolt action rifle. This will very slightly reduce the speed of folloy up shots, but its not something a games rules would notice.
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Nov 15 2004, 10:41 AM
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#60
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Great Dragon Group: Members Posts: 5,889 Joined: 3-August 03 From: A CPI rank 1 country Member No.: 5,222 |
I think maybe the ".50" in the caliber is what got you? .50 Beowulf Entry Rifle: Gun Weight: 8lbs (I could not find a single site that said how much the thing actually weighs, 7.5-8lbs is my best guess) Bullet Weight: 400gr Muzzle Velocity: 1800fps Powder Weight: 38gr Recoil Energy: 27.9 ft-lbs @ 15fps For comparison, M16A2 (5.56x45mm M855): Gun Weight: 7lbs Bullet Weight: 62gr Muzzle Velocity: 3025fps Powder Weight: 26.1gr Recoil Energy: 4.8 ft-lbs @ 6.6fps M14 (7.62x51mm M59): Gun Weight: 11lbs Bullet Weight: 150.5gr Muzzle Velocity: 2750fps Powder Weight: 46gr Recoil Energy: 11.6 ft-lbs @ 8.3fps Lapua TRG 42 (8.6x70mm): Gun Weight: 11lbs Bullet Weight: 250gr Muzzle Velocity: 2990fps Powder Weight: 91.8gr Recoil Energy: 43.4 ft-lbs @ 15.9fps Barrett M82A1 (12.7x99mm Mk 211 Mod 0): Gun Weight: 28.5lbs Bullet Weight: 671gr Muzzle Velocity: 2910fps Powder Weight: 233gr Recoil Energy: 109.6 ft-lbs @ 15.7fps You're definitely going to notice the recoil, but it's not uncontrollable or punishing. |
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Nov 15 2004, 11:00 AM
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#61
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Moving Target Group: Members Posts: 903 Joined: 11-December 02 From: The other end of your computer screen Member No.: 3,724 |
Hey wait...an M16A2 is not a good comparison to a .50.
There is absolutely no kick to an M16A2. You can fire that thing LITERALLY off of your crotch and not get hurt. Unless your point was to show how much recoil that .50 has in comparison to a weapon that practically has none. |
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Nov 15 2004, 11:09 AM
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#62
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Running Target Group: Members Posts: 1,133 Joined: 3-October 04 Member No.: 6,722 |
You're right, the .50 bit was what got me (I freely admit my ignorance of firearms). So in real terms the recoil wouldn't be too bad in single shot. Now, normally I'd assume that (although they market them in autofire models) firing on burst or auto would be a lot worse, but since I cocked up on the original assumption I'll turn it back over to AE and ask for his opinion :)
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Nov 15 2004, 11:23 AM
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#63
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Great Dragon Group: Members Posts: 5,889 Joined: 3-August 03 From: A CPI rank 1 country Member No.: 5,222 |
Looking at the numbers, neither is an M82A1. If you pay attention to the Recoil Energy figures, you'll notice a nice progression there (M16A2 4.8 ft-lbs, M14 11.6 ft-lbs, .50 Beowulf 27.9 ft-lbs, TRG 42 43.4 ft-lbs, M82A1 109.6 ft-lbs). The point is to show in general terms where the .50 Beowulf and similar guns fall on this scale.
Yes, it absolutely would, at least for controllability -- it might not be any more painful. None of these guns (.50 Beowulf, .458 SOCOM, .499 Leitner-Wise, etc) seem to be marketed with burst or fully automatic trigger groups, though; or should there have been a "don't" in "although they market [...]"? The M14 at less than half the recoil energy is often considered pretty useless on fully automatic because it's too difficult to control. This post has been edited by Austere Emancipator: Nov 15 2004, 11:24 AM |
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Nov 15 2004, 11:34 AM
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#64
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Running Target Group: Members Posts: 1,133 Joined: 3-October 04 Member No.: 6,722 |
Ultra-Light 50AE Sledgehammer - click on the .50AE rifle link at the side. "Our first 50AE Sledgehammers have fired over 1000 rounds at FULL AUTO with NO CLEANING! and NO MALFUNCTIONS! " they say boastfully. ?!?!?!?!?!
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Nov 15 2004, 11:46 AM
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#65
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Great Dragon Group: Members Posts: 5,889 Joined: 3-August 03 From: A CPI rank 1 country Member No.: 5,222 |
That site is obviously all about the über-testosteronal bullshit. They seem to have a hell of a lot to compensate for.
That said, neither the .50 AE nor the .440 Cor-Bon are as powerful as the .50 Beowulf, so it's not quite as bad as it sounds. Ultra-Light .50 AE Sledgehammer: Gun Weight: 5.5lbs Bullet Weight: 325gr Muzzle Velocity: 1550fps (1400fps out of a 6" barrel, that looks about right for the ~16" barrel of this gun with propellants meant for pistols) Powder Weight: 27gr Recoil Energy: 19.2 ft-lbs @ 15fps And the .458 is quite a bit worse, about the same as the .50 Beowulf. Completely useless in a combat situation, but I guess it's good enough for a few giggles at a junk yard. This post has been edited by Austere Emancipator: Nov 15 2004, 11:47 AM |
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Nov 15 2004, 11:53 AM
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#66
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Running Target Group: Members Posts: 1,133 Joined: 3-October 04 Member No.: 6,722 |
Nice to know I haven't gone competely nuts :D
Of course get an IGV-IV, shock pads, and a big butch troll (to bring this back on-topic) and who knows? |
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Nov 15 2004, 11:56 AM
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#67
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Moving Target Group: Members Posts: 486 Joined: 4-August 04 From: Fomorian Wastes Member No.: 6,538 |
Hey, hey, away for a few days and the Troll gun debate is on again! My personal feelings on BFTG's is that they should exist and that they shouldn't destroy game balance.
All you have to do is look at what guns trolls use. FMPE trolls only start using guns at shotgun power level and proceed on up, so a .500 Alaskan rimless rifle round used in a SA-pistol frame is not really game destroying. Give trolls their own guns, but limit the ammo. If you say that the .500 calibur troll pistol can be picked up under a hunting licence, make it illegal to own any AP, HE, etc ammo for it as they would never be used for hunting. If the player insists on ADPS for it, make them make it themselves or try to locate avail. 18 ammo. Trolls get shafted in SR, just look at the amount of source material for elves, humans and orcs. Trolls get ONE item and a few paragraphs in the old Germany Sourcebook. For a race that must customise almost every item they own, there must be at least one company that caters to the projected 278 million trolls living 2064; there isn't yet. From memory there isn't even a picture for Fomorians in CC and in Tir Na Nog the artwork for the Fomorian Wastes has doozies not fomorians. Besides, a troll with jacked up strength using a Ranger-X bow can dish out more damage at a longer range than some SR sniper rifles. |
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Nov 15 2004, 12:08 PM
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#68
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Moving Target Group: Members Posts: 903 Joined: 11-December 02 From: The other end of your computer screen Member No.: 3,724 |
Kinda what I was thinking.
I don't think it's unbalanced because if you don't give them their own handguns, what else are they going to use? Big rifles and machine guns or cannons. Hell, if anything, giving them their own handguns might balance things more. Pistols can't shoot long range like machineguns can, and they're surely not a cannon, but get close enough and it'll be like they normally are at longer ranges now. |
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Nov 15 2004, 01:20 PM
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#69
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Running Target Group: Members Posts: 1,133 Joined: 3-October 04 Member No.: 6,722 |
"Did you know armour-piercing rounds are legal for hunting? What is there, some big-ass deer wearing a kevlar vest out there? 'I'm ready for your ass!' "
- Robin Williams |
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Nov 15 2004, 05:01 PM
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#70
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Moving Target Group: Members Posts: 485 Joined: 25-October 04 Member No.: 6,789 |
Well I am working on a slight change to the Cannon Companion fire arm creation rules. Since theoretically and caliber can be made into any type of gun I am going to add a seperate part of the creation calling for ammo size. now there is some restrictions on more powerful ammo, but only becuase they could not logically fit in some type of firearms. This will also allow players to customise there guns that already exist.
Example: Player A loves his Are Alpha Combat Gun, but lately he has been forced to snipe at heavily armored people with it. It's not the best weapon for that particular job being 8M. I as GM rule that it uses 5.56N ammo. Well he spend a bunch of cash and some time getting new barrel made, stronger springs, and some stronger fireing mechanisms. Voila he now has a Ares Alpha Combat gun that fires .375H&H Magnum for a whopping 10S. Example 2: player B needs a real hand cannon. Lately his ruger super warhawk has not been cutting it. So he takes it to his gunsmith and asks for the most powerful handgun cartridge in the world. A few days later he has a completely reworked 5 shot revolver that fires .475 linebaugh for 12S Example 3: player C wants an easily supressed assault rifle. He isn't worried about power becuase all he wants this for is surprise encounters with unarmored combatants. (He hunts devil rats in his spare time) So he rechambers his Colt M23 for .22 Long Rifle (5M damage). |
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Nov 15 2004, 05:27 PM
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#71
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Great Dragon Group: Members Posts: 5,889 Joined: 3-August 03 From: A CPI rank 1 country Member No.: 5,222 |
Ouch. I hope you include double recoil modifiers for that.
I think we discussed this before, but it bears repeating that the .475 Linebaugh is not the most powerful handgun cartridge in the world, and 12S is possibly not a very reasonable Damage Code for it in any case -- not compared to a .375 H&H at 10S at any rate. Typical performance for a .475 Linebaugh out of a 7.5" barrel is a 400gr bullet at 1424fps for 1802 ft-lbs of energy at the muzzle. From the chamberings offered for the BFR alone, at least the .450 Marlin and the .500 S&W are significantly more powerful -- the latter is also generally agreed to be the most powerful handgun caliber available for production handguns, and is capable of pushing a 440gr bullet out of the 7.5" barrel at 1671fps for 2729 ft-lbs of energy. The .375 H&H, in contrast, can propel 300gr bullets at 2645fps for 4662 ft-lbs of energy at the muzzle from a 24" barrel. With the right ammunition, this will outperform any of the above handgun cartridges by far in putting down any kind of critter (gun handling not withstanding).
You might want to check the FCG by Spudman (Peter Millholland), for inspiration if nothing else. This post has been edited by Austere Emancipator: Nov 15 2004, 05:31 PM |
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Nov 15 2004, 05:35 PM
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#72
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Midnight Toker Group: Members Posts: 7,686 Joined: 4-July 04 From: Zombie Drop Bear Santa's Workshop Member No.: 6,456 |
No, no, the most powerful andgun cartrige in the world is 5.56mm NATO. You just have to have some very good flare compensation if you want to use it without going blind. :rotfl:
http://www.gunblast.com/Bushmaster-Pistol.htm |
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Nov 15 2004, 05:44 PM
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#73
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Great Dragon Group: Members Posts: 5,889 Joined: 3-August 03 From: A CPI rank 1 country Member No.: 5,222 |
Yeah, if you equate a huge muzzle flash with power then the 5.56x45mm NATO is certainly more powerful in a handgun than the .500 S&W.
Firing a 55gr bullet at somewhere around 2500fps out of a 7-1/4" barrel, this doesn't generate more than around 750-800 ft-lbs of energy at the muzzle. Additionally, since the velocity is so low, FMJ bullets will not fragment and you've basically got .22 UltraMagnum. The only advantage this has is against armored targets, the wound cavity will be very, very small. I'd rather take a .41 Magnum, thank you very much. |
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Nov 15 2004, 05:48 PM
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#74
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Moving Target Group: Members Posts: 485 Joined: 25-October 04 Member No.: 6,789 |
Actually, the .475 Linebuagh hold the record for deepest penetration shot on an elepant from a hand gun at 42 inches through it's skull, brain and spinal column. This was the only shot that was fired on the rogue elephant and it was killed instantly. Even some .600NE rounds have not made it that deep. Plus despite all it's power the round still has managable recoil. There are actually revolvers made for it today with 4" barrels that have the same performance as the 7.5" barrel AE mentioned. Now I don't know about you but anything over a 5" barrel is begining to be a rifle. I feel justified in a 12S at heavy pistol ranges becuase his will make a god awful hole.
As for the .375 H&H, I went off the lightest facory loads availabe which are sure not in the 4663 ft lb range. mainly becuase he wants a gun left. Also it will still able to be fired on full automatic. I thought since he wanted only a little extra power that was a good route. Especially since he will be using it with steel core rounds instead of hollow points. Smaller holes in the body due to lack of expansion thus easier to live through. Now if he had told me he want full power rounds it would 14S like any normal Sniper round, And it would cost him so much more. (By the way the modifications eliminated the recoil comp of the gun which i feel is a fair trade on recoil for an ork) |
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Nov 15 2004, 06:02 PM
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#75
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Moving Target Group: Members Posts: 485 Joined: 25-October 04 Member No.: 6,789 |
By the way I do feel surprised no one said a thing about the cut down assault rifle. Either everyone thought that so moronic it deserved no mention, did see the merit, or were to blinded by the power guns.
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