Keeping up with the sourcebooks Options

[Voran]

This may end up getting shunted to the 2064 forum, as its somewhat related. I don't have the book yet myself, but I've reviewed some of the various topics we've discussed here, particularlly the new adept stuff.

Which raised the question to me: How does an Adept created under older rules keep up with the new bells and whistles new source material comes up with? Tech based runners can keep up to a degree since they can upgrade their old cyber for newer stuff. Though ultimately unless you get really good rolls on the surgery tables, you're still going to run low on essence.

Adepts on the other hand, unless I've read the rules incorrectly, can't 'forget' powers they've bought, so unless they initiate more, they can't acquire the new stuff as easily.

I guess as a side commentary, I also understand the need to come up with new material with new books, but I'm curious how long its going to be before the next source book has "Laser Death Eyebeams" as an adept power.

[Ol' Scratch]

Very few new adept powers replace old ones; they only offer new options. Each initiation or purchase of Power Points (depending on which you use in your campaign) allows you to learn any of the new powers found in the new books. I really don't see the problem.

Now if they had powers that replaced current ones, that'd be another story and I would see your problem. But as it stands, that's not the way it is except, perhaps, in one or two instances that I can't think of at the moment.

And, hey, if there are some examples like that or you just want to swap powers because a new one fits your concept better than the one you settled on in its stead, ask your GM if you can swap 'em on a point-for-point basis. I doubt many would have a problem with that. I certainly wouldn't.

[Guest_Crimsondude 2.0_*]

Well, it depends on who the GM is. There was a particularly heated discussion about Magician adepts on another site which involved three separate ideas: homegrown rules in SR1 for physad mages, PhysMages from Awakenings, and Magician adepts from MitS. The first two were for all intents and purposes identical, but in discussing interpretations of the Initiation rules for Magician adepts in MitS (which couldn't have been less clear if they were written in Sumerian cuneform) the result would have severely crippled signature characters that have been around for the better part of SR's existence. Given the fact that no one agreed, it was ultimately left up to individual players but it is something that I and some others have had to work around.

As for physads in SOTA64, the metamagical powers pretty much won't be seen until July, 2064. There are exceptions, but they are few and far between. As for powers, it really hasn't come up. I've made a Social Adept with the new powers who was running around in 2061/2, and it seems perfectly acceptable to do so since they were described as being unknown, but it's inherent magic. It's not... It's fine.

The only example I can think of where a Power either no longer exists or has been replaced are Missile Parry (Extended Range), and Enhanced Centering. MP (Ex) no longer exists, although it was introduced in CorpSec Handbook, and I can't even remember the rules to use. I'd be shocked if it actually even affected 1% of physad characters.

Enhanced Centering, OTOH, is a bigger deal. When it was introduced (I know it was in Grimoire 2e, but I'm not sure about 1e) it granted physads the Centering bonuses to certain active skills that Centering does inherently after MitS--assuming you take Centering multiple times, and which was generally about all a high Grade physad could do until SOTA64. It also cost 2 PP per skill group, and if anyone had that (and very likely could have become an initiate in that time), then they might have had 2 PP freed up for other abilities. Of course, I don't know if that ever mattered, but it's something to consider.

Generally, though, it's not an issue.

[Ol' Scratch]

If people are whining because their characters are no longer compatible with an entirely new edition of the game they deserve to be bitch-slapped.

[Stumps]

LOL
oh how you make me laugh.

[Guest_Crimsondude 2.0_*]

Yeah, those fools with their 1,000 karma characters.

[Synner]

If I understood your first post correctly you're wondering how a 3rd Ed character keeps up with SOTA?

As Funkenstein has made clear none of the powers in SOTA64 revise or sideline any older powers, neither the ones from SR3 nor from MitS. In fact most characters will be designed with a selection from all three books. Obviously long running characters face the problem that they don't possess these new abilities and new metamagic techniques. Well, that's SOTA for you, new stuff keeps cropping up and new developments make people's options more varied. Long-running sams faced the same problem when certain nanotech and biotech was introduced or upgraded in M&M. Paying streetindex for new tech is about as complicated and demanding on the character as Initiating to get the power points to buy new Adept powers and metamagics so this shouldn't really be an issue.

If you really, really want to replace one of your current powers with some new stuff follow Funk's advice and talk to your GM.

[DrJest]

[Tanka]

FASA began SR3, not FanPro. FanPro is just continuing the line until they find it necessary to begin SR4.

[DrJest]

Whichever :) The point remains the same though ;)

[Fortune]

Not really. There's no real reason to retrofit an already existing PC. So some new and up-till-now undiscovered Powers and abilities are released. This doesn't automatically mean everyone should rush to alter their characters' backhistory.

[DrJest]

I didn't say otherwise. I was objecting to the blanket generalisation made about older edition characters, who sometimes have had to change themselves in ways ranging from the minor to the really quite significant (eg, Harlequin - my one - having to give up decking retroactively).

[Ol' Scratch]

Why? Did having to maintain a single skill and buy a deck with utilities (and possibly a trode net if he's horribly afraid of datajacks) suddenly become too much of a burden for him?

[toturi]

Maybe he had to redo his Firearm skills... Pistols, Rifles, SMGs, Shotguns.

[DrJest]

[Ol' Scratch]

So again, why did that make Harlequinn give up decking?

[Conskill]

I always imagined Harlequin was typing at a tortoise. You don't need to be a decker to post in Shadowland, you just need to know one. And I get mildly ill thinking of immortal super-magician ultra-swordsman grand-machivellian deckers.

[Kagetenshi]

As previously stated, different Harlequin.

Still needs to be answered, but as also pointed out, it probably has something to do with the division of either Armed Combat or Firearms.

~J

[Ol' Scratch]

Even so, it only takes a single skill and a deck to be a "decker." You can take other skills if you plan on doing a lot of stuff on your own (building your own deck, hotwiring jackpoints, etc.), but they're not even remotely required. Especially if you're powerful enough that you risk taking a +10 on your TN in older editions -- you obviously have/had the karma and resources to invest in a deck and that one, single skill. Doubly so when you figure in the fact that SR3 allows for more skill points during character creation.

If you focus on the Programming specialization and pick up Frame Core Design as a Knowledge Skill (you know, one of the many completely free skills you also got in the changeover to 3rd Edition), you could even rival some of the big boys if you focus on being a "drone decker" who relies on his bad-ass smartframes and agents to do his bidding.

Considering also that this is the same guy who ranted not too long ago about how the game designers shouldn't gave into people whining about making things harder on the players (oh no, he might have to take a minor defaulting penalty if he wants to shoot both Pistols and Assault Rifles but still rely on a single skill -- the horror), he just doesn't have much room to stand on that particular complaint.

[DrJest]

Sorry, I think I must be not making myself clear on this...

I'd invested a fair amount of karma and nuyen into decking, both in terms of skills (and yes, I had some of the backup skills as well) and hardware. When VR1.0 came out, it meant that suddenly all my target numbers were 10 points harder. Since it was stated that this was essentially "the way it had always been", it was clear that no mage of any power, even a starting one, would choose to deck, hence the re-organisation of my skills and cash. Since it was clear that the character would never have made those choices in the first place, my Computers, Computer B/R, Electronics etc and the custom deck I had built would never have been selected; fortunately my GM agreed that they could be traded in for other skills and gear more appropriate under the "new" rules.

I've never even mentioned armed combat or firearms - where did you get that from?

[Tanka]

Y'see... There are times when rules are stupid.

Like no Mage can deck.

Those are the times when the GM goes "NO!" and ignores that rule. Blatantly.

But he didn't, so you live with the ruling.

[Ol' Scratch]

...and then there are times when the designers of the game realize it was stupid and change it in a new edition. But, apparently, that's a bad thing because it makes them incompatible with the older, screwed-up edition... which is some logic that confuses me to no end.

[Tanka]

Logic? We don't need no stinking logic!

[Kagetenshi]

[DrJest]

Ahh, all becomes clear :)

And Doc, I never said changes were bad - specfically said that I was not saying changes were bad - what annoyed me was your attack on people upset by having to faff around with already existing characters to make them fit into the new rules.

On the plus side, I figure Harlequin may be playable again now :/

EDIT: I missed this: