In melee with guns Options

[JavaLamp]

Where are the rules for handling melee with a ranged weapon? for instance, a polearm wielding psycho closes to melee range with a character using an smg and attacks. Does the polearm psycho get two chances to damage, like he was in melee with another character, or only one?

-JavaLamp

[Ol' Scratch]

It's in the modifiers for Ranged Combat. The only penalty is that they suffer a +2 modifier if they try to shoot someone while engaged in melee combat. If they're using their pistols as melee weapons, the penalty doesn't exist (but they're Reach 0 Improvised Clubs). Otherwise, it's handled just like it is any other time.

[D.Generate]

The polearm guy would only get a chance to damage on his turn if the guy with the SMG shoots when his int. pass comes up. Now if the guy with the smg tries clubbing his assalient then it would work like the regular melee rules where the winner of the opposed test does the damage.

I think this is what you wanted to know. At least I hope this helps.

The New Big D

[JavaLamp]

Thanks for the responses. D.Generate hit what I was after, but that's a useful piece of information too Doc Funk.

Now... in this case, if the guy with the SMG was firing on his own turn, could he use it as a club in an opposed melee test with the polearm freak?

*badada* *badada*
*thwak*

-JL

[mfb]

yep.

[DrJest]

On the subject of guns in melee, it's worth considering the Melee Hardening option for them if you plan to do it a lot, although i think that pretty much requires you to assemble a gun from the ground up.

I just had a thought. Leaving aside for a moment the traditionally awful can of worms that is gun weapon foci - could a gun be enchanted as a weapon focus for use in hand to hand combat, do you think? It'd be a bitch-kitty of an enchanting test, certainly, without spending craploads of nuyen on adding orichalc etc, but I can't see anything that would prevent it. If you were building the gun yourself, it might even qualify for the Handmade Telesma modifier (somehow I doubt any runner would have the skills to refine metals etc to make a virgin telesma handgun :) ).

[Stumps]

Scew it.
Make it easy on yourself.
Make the focus the hand grip of the pistol or the but of the rifle.

[DrJest]

Interesting, I'd assumed that you'd have to enchant the whole thing or not at all.

[Austere Emancipa...]

[Stumps]

I really don't see how that's really possible.
The metals you'd have to impliment and then the electronics that won't get in the way?
There's so many small moving parts to a firearm that I'd almost say that all you could realy do is bigger pieces, but that's just me.
I don't think that springs and aluminum components would work so well once you make them oricalcum.

[DrJest]

In 2nd ed, it says "whether the materials are built into the focus or simply consumed during the ritual..." (Grimoire 2, p.25). I read into this that the orichalc is mystically bonded to the focus during the ritual rather than actually physically replacing bits of it.

[Austere Emancipa...]

There's no limit to how small an item you can enchant, nor to how small parts the larger item to be enchanted can have, and a sword with a significant amount of a gold-silver-copper-mercury-alloy in the blade would suck just as bad as a gun with the stuff in the slide, the grip, etc. Like DrJest said, orichalcum doesn't even have to go into the actual item (and indeed you can enchant items without using any orichalcum or any other particular special materials), and even if you do put it in the item it can be anywhere on it. Even if there's only orichalcum on the handle, crossguards and pommel of a sword, you still enchant the whole sword.

[Ol' Scratch]

You're also assuming you know how the impossible alloy of gold/silver/mercury/copper functions. For all we know, it becomes extremely durable when enchanted but is soft and malleable as a radical.

Regardless, as DrJest said (which applies in SR3, too), the radicals used in the Enchanting process are part of the Enchanting process; they don't necessarily have to go into the enchanted object at all, though they can. Likewise, the Enchanting rules themselves make no requirement whatsoever for orichalcum in weapon foci; it's a bit of legacy fluff text from the SR3 corebook.

[toturi]

[Austere Emancipa...]

All rules regarding creating Weapon Foci are in MitS. The rules in MitS for creating Weapon Foci do not require any use of orichalcum. Ergo orichalcum is not needed in creating Weapon Foci in canon.

[toturi]

[Austere Emancipa...]

Canon has, at different times, stated a lot of things that are directly contradicted by later, more specific material. Like I said, all rules for Enchanting are in MitS. These rules do not mention any requirement for orichalcum. If orichalcum was required, you would think the rules for creating Weapon Foci would mention that, would you not?

I would say MitS supersedes SR3 if I truly thought there was something to supersede. As it is, it's just a piece of fluff that has apparently not carried on into the rules.

This post has been edited by Austere Emancipator: Nov 15 2004, 02:19 PM

[toturi]

Did MitS specifically state that there needn't be Orichalcum in Weapon Foci creation? There is no contradiction, since there is no mention of not requiring orichalcum for weapon foci.

[Ol' Scratch]

Look at it this way...

The fluff text is an observation. Due to the extremely high TNs and First Karma bonding costs inherent to creating weapon foci (keeping in mind that Reach has no impact on the enchanting costs), they noticed that just about every weapon foci they've seen have incorporated it into their enchanting. Why? Because it lowers the demands of the enchanting process significantly to do so, and helps reflect the insane prices they charge for them.

However, the actual rules for creating weapon foci have no such requirement despite that bit of observation.

[RedmondLarry]

Back on topic again, if only for a moment.

[Ol' Scratch]

Anyone who's armed with a weapon can use it to defend with, even if that weapon is an improvised one. If he has the Clubs skill (or chooses to default), he should be able to do so just fine. It's usually a bad idea in most situations because taking any sort of penalty (like a defaulting penalty) in melee combat is a suicide wish. You're better off dodging the attack.

[Shadow]

I concur with OT. If the guy with the SMG wants to attack, he needs to get his butt out of melee range and then fire. But if he is engaged in melee when polearms turn comes up, he better be prepared to get his butt handed to him.


Edited for clarity

[Jason Farlander]

Umm, Shadow? How on earth did you get that out of what OurTeam said? He is saying that Mr. Polearm does *not* get a counterattack when Mr. SMG shoots at him, even when in melee range. Mr. Polearm can, infact, *only* dodge and/or resist damage.

However, when Mr Polearm attacks, Mr SMG *does* get a counterattack, using his SMG as an improvised club. (unless he has some other melee weapon in his other hand).

[Ol' Scratch]

Maybe I misread OurTeam, too. Polearm definitely doesn't get a counterattack when he's shot -- that's just retarded. Mr. SMG, however, can counterattack when Mr. Polearm attacks him.

[Shadow]

Hehe I reread what I wrote and realized it made no sense. I edited it for clarity.