 Shadowrun is dead |
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 Nov 16 2004, 01:13 AM
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#26
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Moving Target  Group: Members Posts: 903 Joined: 11-December 02 From: The other end of your computer screen Member No.: 3,724  |
Cyberpunk: n: Fast-paced science fiction involving a lawless subculture of an oppressive society dominated by computer technology. That sounds like SR to me. Now I know that dictionaries miss the cultural attachments to phrases. Cyberpunk, culturally was very much an issue of one that was fueled by a fear of corporate take-over at a histarical level. The "cyber" was not just what was being fought against as well, it was what was being used to fight the system. A "cyber(netic) punk" would be one who was a punk that was in part, cybernetically inhanced. Basically, a cyberpunk is pretty much the '80's punk super hero. A cyebrnetically inhanced punk who now has the ability to physically take on the system and fight all of their evil in physical form. Like all super-heros, it's silly. Now as to this part of what you were saying:
Just one. Fields of Fire. That sourcebook was the first sourcebook that put forth the systems in which a mercinary team of runners who so chose to run in a seriously professional manner could do so. There are no further rules needed at all. It's already been handeled, and SR saw this angle comming and added it into it's volume like smart marketers do. |
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Nov 16 2004, 01:54 AM
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#27
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Moving Target Group: Members Posts: 100 Joined: 21-November 03 Member No.: 5,836 |
Having read first edition SR before reading any "other" cyberpunk material, the cyberpunk elements felt really, really bolted on. There were these vague allusions to archetypes who had worked for the crops until they discovered how evil they were, but no real explanation of what that "evil" really was. The historical material and campaign setting basically deal with political forces, and don't establish any kind of "downtroden working classes vs the capitalists" ethic at all - it's like the writers thought it ought to be in there but no one really devoted any time (or pages) to actually generating that feel. First edition SR, up to and including the first couple of supplements, is very much a magical caper movie type system. You have the meet, negotiate the deal, break in, it goes wrong and you have a flashy fight trying to get away and then you sell the loot.
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Nov 16 2004, 02:26 AM
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#28
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Target Group: Members Posts: 34 Joined: 14-November 04 From: Atlanta, GA Member No.: 6,826 |
It would have been a very different movie if Brad Pitt and George Clooney had to pull out assault rifles and stage a running gun battle across the casino floor to get to freedom, as Julia Roberts fires clip after clip at Andy Garcia, who iss on top of the elevator throwing grenades.
I want to see that movie.. that would be absolutely hysterical. All kidding aside, I have to agree with several of the above posts. The most success I have had with running this game was the caper style. I played in a game where the GM attempted the gritty street side, and for me it just didnt work. I think it is more personal preference. In the group I play with currently, 3 of us have GM'ed and each one has stressed the fact that you cant walk around with your SMG blazing or the game will be short lived for that character. As for planning, you bet, I think I go thru 2 weeks worth of prep work thinking thru every angle I can to make sure that I know the ins and outs as well as the NPC's, who they are, what they want (therefore who will turn and when ect). So far, my plots are multi threaded, multi layered but at the core, they are people who have strengths and weaknesses. As to special rules, I can see only one really to give you more of a cyberpunk feel. Make magic non existent, or only thru some kind of telepathic state. Then everyone is a borg of some sort (bio ware for fixes ect). Change up some of the history (like the indians for example) and really fry the government. In SR, I always got the feeling that the government was still there, the megas just ignored them for all intensive purposes. Much like the medieval church (cant try a priest in civil courts) but if you could get the rope around his neck fast enough and far enough away... well .. oppps. |
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Nov 16 2004, 02:29 AM
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#29
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Immortal Elf Group: Validating Posts: 7,999 Joined: 26-February 02 Member No.: 1,890 |
You should be put down execution style for using that shade of blue, for you have now officially blinded me. Feh.
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Nov 16 2004, 02:37 AM
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#30
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Running Target Group: Members Posts: 1,049 Joined: 24-March 03 Member No.: 4,323 |
Arrgh! My eyes! It BURNS!
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Nov 16 2004, 03:30 AM
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#31
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Running Target Group: Members Posts: 1,405 Joined: 23-February 04 From: Honolulu, HI Member No.: 6,099 |
I think I've commented a few times in other threads on SR that in some ways I really wondered when they were going to encorporate combat hardsuits ala Bubblegum Crisis into the SR line. Not that I see that specifically happening, but probably because I agree with some other posters that SR, especially in recent times, seems more along the lines of anime to me. Probably because about the time SR first came out, I was really starting to get into anime. Along the way since them, they seem to mesh well. A little mix of Ghost in the Shell, Bubblegum Crisis, Silent Moebius, Akira, riding bean, crying freeman, etc etc. All seemed to fit with the feel I was getting off SR.
Other opinions, naturally, may vary. |
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Nov 16 2004, 04:49 AM
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#32
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Moving Target Group: Members Posts: 807 Joined: 9-October 04 Member No.: 6,741 |
Personally, I think Shadowrun is fine as is.
What we have is a system that can allow for cyberpunk, for things such as Cowboy Bebop where you know the heroes are doomed from the start, and even Ocean's 11 and quite possibly a lot of scifi shows. To be honest, I find you can even do Halo with this game if you wanted to. How many games out there are that adaptive and that capable of covering multiple genres? |
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Nov 16 2004, 05:02 AM
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#33
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Running Target Group: Members Posts: 1,326 Joined: 15-April 02 Member No.: 2,600 |
I can't say how much of SR is anime, as I've never watched much anime. It occurs to me similarly that I can't really say how much of it is "pure" cyberpunk, since I never read any cyberpunk. I was aware of Neuromancer and Snow Crash and many of the other classic cyberpunk novels in much the same way I am aware of Minnesota; I know its there, I just have never been curious enough to see what its all about.
I ran across this article a couple of days ago looking for stuff on Latin America in Shadowrun, and even though it has nothing to do with Latin America I still thought it was interesting. http://slashdot.org/features/00/06/04/1525259.shtm And this one I really liked, even though its for Cyberpunk and the stat blocks don't help me. But then, I like movies so maybe its a foregone conclusion that I'll like articles about movies and gaming. http://www.talsorian.com/articles.shtml#Cy...yberpunk%202020 Beyond that, I'm always interested in expanding my SR horizons. Its actually been awhile since I've run a regular shadowrun game. The last three I ran were a Lone-Star mini-series, an African merc campaign, and a homebrewed alternate history Shadowrun set in WW2. |
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Nov 16 2004, 06:38 AM
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#34
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Neophyte Runner Group: Members Posts: 2,001 Joined: 26-February 02 From: Michigan Member No.: 1,514 |
The problem here is, of course, all of this is subjective. Your cyperppunk might be my Adventure! game. Maybe my horror is your cheap comedy.
The game is versatile enough to allow for any number of styles of playing it. I say it is what you make of it. That said the Doc has me covered here-he'll say it better than I'd dream of, and he's been at as long as I have if I remember rightly. |
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Nov 16 2004, 08:02 AM
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#35
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Moving Target Group: Members Posts: 903 Joined: 11-December 02 From: The other end of your computer screen Member No.: 3,724 |
Mercer...I almost want to strangle you for those links.
I read both of them. The first one was simply using SR as a glorified fueling for their own chest inflation in a very mistaken and wrong manner. The second one, cyberpunk2020 article 24, had so little to do with cyberpunk that it strained the brain to try and keep up with the ramblings of the authors supposed "0"s and "1"s. His reasonings for several things in that article are completely perversed and wholey based on nothing more than assumption. What "1" means and what "0" means. Second, this author looks way too much into things. His cruch for analysis is the movie, The One, which fueled his ongoing metaphores of 0's and 1's and how the cyberpunk is a 0 who just wants nothing, they just want it all to be over no matter if they make it or not. The 1 aparantly is his idea of a selfish man who want to be unbalanced but in control where the 0 cares nothing for control and only wants everything to cease, including his own self. How the hell this author can spend that much time writing about a movie in regards to cyberpunk regarding 1's and 0's and the philosphy therein is well beyond me. I'll simply stick to saying that cyberpunk is simple. If you have a guy who hates the system and he's living in a future that's comformist to some degree that the rest of the population has bought into but thinks that the guy is crazy for hating. And this guy feels that it is his duty for the "freedoms of mankind" to make his "truth" known to the "deceived", no matter what his end may be... Then you have cyberpunk. And just for the record. I almost NEVER see this one given credit in these conversations about cyberpunk. Anyone remember Logan's Run? (1976) (for comparison, soylent green: 1973) |
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Nov 16 2004, 02:19 PM
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#36
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Moving Target Group: Members Posts: 496 Joined: 28-June 02 From: Orlando FL Member No.: 2,915 |
yep, it's one of the examples i use to describe an arcology... it also came up one time as an example of where SR could go if FASA had continued along the ED crossover line, with S-K and everyone building their own corporate arcologies for people to live in until the magic level had become safer again (much like the radiation level in Logan's Run) and then exiting out of the city to explore their new world... |
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Nov 16 2004, 03:01 PM
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#37
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Moving Target Group: Members Posts: 256 Joined: 26-February 02 Member No.: 1,709 |
That's what it is NOW. But that's not what it was when it started. Immortals and ancient mysteries were a fairly early addition to the Shadowrun repertoire, but they didn't really become the focus of much of the... well, "metaplot" for lack of a better term, until like the mid-90s. And as tempting as it is for some to attribute anime flavor to Shadowrun, I don't think that was a primary influence in the early days either. Of course, now Shadowrun is most of the things you describe, and it's kind of silly. But to each his own. |
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Nov 16 2004, 03:12 PM
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#38
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Runner Group: Members Posts: 3,314 Joined: 26-February 02 From: Lisbon, Cidade do Pecado Member No.: 185 |
As usual I beg to differ... or are you forgetting all the early stuff 4th world metaplot links like the very first novel trilogy Secrets of Power, Bottled Demon, Total Eclipse, TNO, Threats, and of course Harlequin?
The Immortals have been part of the Shadowrun metaplot from the very first steps. |
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Nov 16 2004, 03:46 PM
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#39
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Moving Target Group: Members Posts: 256 Joined: 26-February 02 Member No.: 1,709 |
Your disagreement hinges on ignoring my use of terms like "focus"; I don't believe that the focus of the game on immortals was as strong in 1990 as it was in 1995. Or, for that matter, in 2004. In 1990 they were suggestive hints at something else; by now, it's kind of hard to suggest anymore.
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Nov 16 2004, 03:48 PM
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#40
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Technomancer Group: Retired Admins Posts: 4,638 Joined: 2-October 02 From: Champaign, IL Member No.: 3,374 |
Plus, like all covnersations we have about gritty cyberpunk vs. fantasy manga, I think it's a strength of the system to show that we can do both things with one system. As others have stated above and before, both styles work within the rules and the gameplay-style should be discussed up front by the players and the GM.
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Nov 16 2004, 04:45 PM
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#41
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Moving Target Group: Members Posts: 903 Joined: 11-December 02 From: The other end of your computer screen Member No.: 3,724 |
And I, while having a grave distaste for the manga flavored SR for my own reasons (would appreciate folks not casting jugement on my preference), have to agree with Dashifen here.
SR is capable of being multi-flavored. At this point, what it started as is completely pointless. No one in SR's marketing really cares what it started as any further than an attempt to keep their long term fans who like where it came from. This % of players will be kept happy while they incorperate newer suggestive feels to the atmosphere in an attempt to keep the atmpsphere alive and fresh feeling while clicking with newer audiances who are of a younger generation than those who grew up in their early teens and 20's throughout the 80's. It's the shear nature of the product. |
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Nov 16 2004, 05:23 PM
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#42
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Running Target Group: Members Posts: 1,326 Joined: 15-April 02 Member No.: 2,600 |
Well, thats fair. The first one I won't try to defend. Its a bizarre article that I cam across looking for SR Latin America links (and since the phrase "latin america" is used once in 5 pages of decker comments at the bottom, I guess it qualifies. At least it wasn't porn. When I was trying to find something on that weird animal they found in Washington... well, suffice to say when you type 'never before seen animal' into any given search engine you'll get a wide range of responses). Parts of it I enjoyed for its general (if misguided) weirdness, parts of it made me cringe a little. Cyber Cinema Classics, however, I like. Granted, your synopsis of the review of The One is not far off (it does seem odd to use binary as a central metaphor to a movie about Jet Li trying to kill himself 128 times, and succeeding) but overall I found the series of essays enjoyable. It was interesting to see how they started out as basically capsule reviews of movies followed by a block of game stats and went forward every week into increasingly complex dissertations onto the "meaning of cyberpunk". One possibility is that writing a weekly column drove the reviewer insane. There is a link on that site to his master's thesis in cyberpunk cinema. If you ever want a reason to pluck out your eyes and play hacky-sack with them, try that thing. That said, I enjoyed the thematic breakdown of the twenty-something cyberpunk movies he came up with, including the ones that aren't classic cyberpunk (Sneakers, City of Lost Children, Leon, and so on). As I said, as a game master, I'm always looking for inspiration. |
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Nov 16 2004, 07:56 PM
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#43
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Moving Target Group: Members Posts: 903 Joined: 11-December 02 From: The other end of your computer screen Member No.: 3,724 |
Yeah, but what about Flatliners.
Kiefer Sutherland, Julia Roberts, Kevin Bacon, and William Baldwin all played as doctors who were trying to see the other side of death by allowing them selves to die while the others monitored how long they were gone and brought them back, sometimes with the good ol fashion paddle style. Pretty crazy movie, made in 1990. And if that doesn't look like SR artwork...holy crap I don't know what in the hell does. No techno stuff though :( |
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Nov 16 2004, 08:08 PM
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#44
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Moving Target Group: Members Posts: 637 Joined: 26-February 02 Member No.: 1,528 |
Me and that funny language:
I don't want to change game mechanics (For that I would choose another system ;-) ) I was polling for the parameters for "caper" style games or "Mission:Impossible / charlies angels / Bugs / CI-5(original series)" (always the series, never the movies) style games. What Build Point costs, what limits, what special rules. Maybe the experience of some. FoF (and the Merc chapter in SoTA) are nice but to be honest: If I want to play Merc, I have a number of better systems (Merc:2000/Dark Conspiracy, Gurps) The SR material is good but Merc-campaigns are not what I was looking for, I want to remain urban. The reason for my request was that I agree with the "us vs. the man" element being "bolted on". What works nicely in SR is the "System" with it's power. At least when it is allowed to come out to play (Not often enough). I want "Stainless steel rats" instead of "Neuromancers and Cowboys" Birdy P.S: If we get Hardsuits, I insist on a Priss |
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Nov 16 2004, 08:11 PM
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#45
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Running Target Group: Members Posts: 1,326 Joined: 15-April 02 Member No.: 2,600 |
Actually, this goes back to something I've said for years. Every movie is a shadowrun movie. While that is an intentional exaggeration, you can pull from a pretty broad range of source material to run almost any sort of shadowrun game.
Flatliners is a good example because the ghosts already exist in SR. Maybe the next time the sammie takes goes to his physical damage overflow limit and is saved by a quick stabilization, he could be dead for a few seconds, and then after that you can follow the first half of the movie. But since I like movies and I watch movies, they tend to be more of an influence on my game that "classic" cyberpunk sources. |
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Nov 16 2004, 10:22 PM
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#46
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Moving Target Group: Members Posts: 830 Joined: 3-April 04 From: Columbus, Ohio Member No.: 6,215 |
Of course, it's true that the immortals and ED crossovers have been in it from the beginning. But like the clown said, they weren't the focus. In fact, as a very long time shadowrun player, I only recently realized how early they came in, because up until this year I'd never run the Harlequin modules. The ED references were hidden enough that if you're in a group that doesn't buy pre-written adventures, you don't see anything about immortal elves in anything that comes out before 95 or so. Now that I have read a lot of that stuff I see a lot of little clues, but nothing that screamed "there are immortal elves, pay attention to them." When new players have asked about the game world, I've always heard it explained to them in very cyberpunk terms, with not a single mention of immortals, horrors, or anime. I think the focus of the game has shifted, if not the actual content. My group's in sort of a weird situation, because though we've all played for a long time, we've stuck to editions and sourcebooks that came out before 95 and always made up our own adventures, but now that we've played Harlequin and Harlequin's back, we're sort of being forced to confront the IE issue, and I think we're going to resolve it by saying something like "harlequin's a nut that just THINKS he's more than 40 years old, and we have no fragging clue WHAT those things that we dealt with are" (heh, accusations of dementia are a great way to avoid needing a spoiler tag). I, and everyone I know, got into the game because the cyberpunk aspects appealed to us. I don't know a single person who felt like the game was ever marketed to them as being anything like anime when we got into it. Now, I think that may have changed (can't really tell seeing as it's been a good long while since I've been able to physically see a new shadowrun sourcebook rather than just hear about it online), but I think in the beginning, the high fantasy elements like IEs and whatnot were one of those things for the "advanced" shadowrunner, not the newbies who were pretty much kept away from anything like that until they crossed the Harlequin line, at which point I think just about anyone becomes a "veteran" shadowrun player. I don't know how the novels fit into "focus" of the game. It could very well be that the Secrets of Power trilogy shoots everything I say down and makes me an idiot. |
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Nov 17 2004, 07:22 AM
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#47
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Moving Target Group: Members Posts: 256 Joined: 24-October 04 Member No.: 6,784 |
I always thought that cyberpunk was based on the effect that ever expanding technology would have on the dynamic of society (this almost certainly demands a future setting). Here, anime paints a good background, specifically Ghost in the Shell. The main character looks for the most part human but can almost level buildings. What effect would that have on a free society? Would the serious police presence / heavy foot of government be avoidable when the power for widespread destruction could easily be put into the hands of an individual.
Another theme that seems common to cyberpunk is the secret society aspect, that different groups are manipulating society in a way invisible to most members of that society. The classical Gibson decker better represents the interplay of these two forces, technology gives a few the power to confront those who would manipulate society. The deckers become almost like a technological illuminati, or Knights Templar. The corp/decker antagoist/protagonist relationship is dictated by the futuristic setting more than anything else. The background story of SR actually adresses the secret society aspect FAR more than it ever focused on the effect that technology would have on society. SR relies more upon the balkinization of the nations of earth and the introduction of transnational corp actors to explain the collapse of individualistic society and widespread disorder rather than any effects of technology. The secret forces manipulating society angle is far more developed, and magic only adds to this. In fact, by far the magic angle is more developed when you consider that it is Magic rather than technology that was the catalyst for all of the most drastic changes in society in the SR universe, all the REALLY pivitol events the GGD and the NAN, Dragons. As you read through "As it Came to Pass" it fast turns from technological machinations to the effects of magic and dosen't turn back. If you view magic as just another sort of "technology", the it becomes apparent that Magic has been the main focus of the story arc, and perhaps it is wrong to consider SR was ever really cyberpunk. |
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Nov 17 2004, 08:32 AM
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#48
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Running Target Group: Members Posts: 1,133 Joined: 3-October 04 Member No.: 6,722 |
When I said SR was anime, I was referring to a combination of styles that is rarely, if ever, seen outside of the genre. The mixture of high technology and mysticism is almost solely the purview of the anime genre; this is why the latter Matrix films are such bones of contention, imho, since the Matrix trilogy is clearly a live-action anime (the Wachowski brothers are heavily into manga and anime). SR is also a mix of high-tech and mysticism, albeit leaning more heavily on the mysticism if you ask me. That, to me, screams anime - not the BESM anime of Bubblegum Crisis, but the more gritty, apocalyptic stuff of Ghost in the Shell, Akira, Megazone 23 or Monster City.
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Nov 17 2004, 08:33 AM
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#49
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Moving Target Group: Members Posts: 903 Joined: 11-December 02 From: The other end of your computer screen Member No.: 3,724 |
It doesn't matter what form this "guy" (or girl) comes in. Bladerunner, Soylent Green, Logan's Run, Ghost In A Shell, I, Robot, Akira, etc...
Again...
Again...
No...it's not wrong to consider SR cyberpunk. It has all the elements needed. A character who hates the system that's, in his/her mind, pulling a cloak of control over the masses and feels that they can not stand by and watch everyone complacently go along with this system that is really controlled by a "secret" set of people or groups (IE's, Mega-Corps, take your pick) and sets out to fight those who they've deemed "evil" and "wrong" and responsible for this "lie" of control over humanity. The "Cyber" is an aspect of the name that thrusts the characters into a future that is over-run with technology and new inovations that seem harmless on the surface but, in effect (through the characters revalation), are dangerous controls for the sytem to use as a means of controlling the "lie" over the masses and to keep those quiet who oppose it. Magic is but another means for both sides to use just like the technology. It is the authors extra "Mrs. Dash" to make a different flare of a "cyberpunk" future. "What if magic came back in a future where the system has taken over?" Part of any of these such "futures" is a common theme to have tragic happenings in the history that explain why such control ever became possible as they might seem unbelievable to our present audiance without given a reason to buy into why the mass public would go along with such a thing. Kind of like the Patriot Act would be a good kick off for such a tail because in the 60's, such an act would be unthinkable without a reason given to believe possible like the 9/11 attack. Like I said...It's simple... If you have a guy who hates the system and he's living in a future that's comformist to some degree that the rest of the population has bought into but thinks that the guy is crazy for hating. And this guy feels that it is his duty for the "freedoms of mankind" to make his "truth" known to the "deceived", no matter what his end may be... Then you have cyberpunk. And yes, The Matrix is cyberpunk. |
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Nov 17 2004, 01:43 PM
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#50
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Target Group: Members Posts: 55 Joined: 7-May 04 Member No.: 6,308 |
First of all, I always felt that Shadowrun basicly tossed magic in with technology so far as the cyberpunk goes (i.e. it explores the idea of individualism in a dystopian society transformed by technology and magic).
And while certain, cyberpunk, animes are similar to Shadowrun, I think seeing the commonality as anime rather than the cyberpunk is a mistake. While I agree the focus of the game has shifted, I always felt it was going more into the Action Sci-Fi direction. I see a hell of a lot more Shadowrun in movies like Equilibrium, Pitch Black, or the oft-maligned Johnny Mneumonic than in ANY anime I've ever seen. It's possible that if one is already an anime fan, confirmation basis'll make one see it, especially considering how epic it's gotten lately. Not that all animes are epic, it just seems like most are. But frankly, the fluidity of the SR universe is such that it could be used, as has been said before, for damn near anything. |
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