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> BBB vs. Cannon Companion, 2 Cyber Implant weapons in melee
Tranok
post Nov 17 2004, 01:40 AM
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I took a cursory look through the previous posts without finding this. So I've got a question for anyone that thinks they may have some definite idea how to solve a rules dispute. The BBB mentions on page 121 that two cyber implant weapons such as razors or spurs used in melee give the character a 50% increase in effective hit strength. The cannon companion has specific rules for two weapon combat. The question is whether or not the rule for two cyber implant weapons in the BBB would be completely supplanted by the cannon companion rules, used in conjunction with, or be available as an option instead of actively attacking with the second spur? Thoughts, opinions, interpretations, or best yet official rulings would be appreciated.
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kevyn668
post Nov 17 2004, 01:44 AM
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The rules stack. If you have two sets of spurs or razors AND the appropriate Off-Hand skill, you get the 50% strength bonus and the extra dice.
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Fortune
post Nov 17 2004, 01:49 AM
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That is the Official view as well. :)

You can also substitute the Ambidexterity Edge for the Off-Hand skill.
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kevyn668
post Nov 17 2004, 01:55 AM
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I thought I was stating the official rules. Its the only rules question I know the answer to. Use the search function, its the only thread topic that I'll weigh in on with an actual answer. :)

Whoops, forgot the ambi-thing. :oops:
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Fortune
post Nov 17 2004, 02:04 AM
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I was merely adding confirmation to your fine response. ;)

... and adding the Ambi-thing! :D
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Ol' Scratch
post Nov 17 2004, 02:13 AM
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Before anyone complains, I'm going to point out the Obvious Answer that everyone tends to forget when they do complain about it.

The Ambidexterity rules change nothing regarding this combo. Without the Ambidexterity rules, twined cyberweapons had the exact same advantage they do with the Ambidexterity rules. The only thing that changes is the need for either Ambidexterity 3 or an Off-Hand Weapon Skill, of which they pay the exact same price anyone else would who wants to use any other two weapons. Thus, no, Ambidexterity and twinned Spurs is not unbalanced in any way, shape, or form over twinned Spurs on their own.
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Toptomcat
post Nov 17 2004, 02:57 AM
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Za? What? No.
+50% POWER is distinct from +50% DICE, no?
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Ol' Scratch
post Nov 17 2004, 03:00 AM
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Yes, they are. But twinned spurs give +50% power whether you're using Ambidexterity or not. The +50% power is the benefit of those particular types of weapons, just like a Katana has a Reach of 1 and a +3 bonus to Power, or a Monowhip uses half Impact and has a set Damage Code.

If you take Ambidexterity, you get +50% dice no matter which weapon combo you prefer. It's completely different and self-balancing in that respect. If you originally threw 6 dice, you're now throwing 9 dice after a hefty investment in Ambidexterity. Your choice of weapons matter little.
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Toptomcat
post Nov 17 2004, 03:01 AM
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Ah. Glad that's cleared up.
However, separate mechanic =\ balanced...
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Ol' Scratch
post Nov 17 2004, 03:21 AM
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Look at it this way. Two characters, they both are indentical in all ways except their weapons of choice. They both have Strength 6, and one prefers to use a Katana and Survival Knife combo while the other prefers twinned Spurs. They both have Edged Weapons 6/Cyber-Implant 6 respectively.

Katana Boy's Damage Code: 9M, Reach 1. 6 dice.
Spurs Boy's Damage Code: 10M, Reach 0. 6 dice.

Fairly balanced. Now they both invest in Ambidexterity 3. The change...

Katana Boy: 9M, Reach 1. 9 dice.
Spur Boy: 10M, Reach 0. 9 dice.

It's not broken. Abusable? Yes, but it's not a fault of the Ambidexterity rules... it's a fault of trolls and crazy Strength boosts.
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Toptomcat
post Nov 17 2004, 03:28 AM
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True.
Though even in normal realms of moderately-cybered or just high-normal trollish Strength things start getting a little silly.
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Edward
post Nov 17 2004, 03:56 AM
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If you ask me it is a blatant and unwarranted pandering to wolverine clones. A rule was wanted to make them worth the essence when SR3 was released so they made up the +50% strength. The name of the example character shows conclusively it was for the sole purpose of pandering to wolverine clones.

Personally I would have removed that bonus when the 2 weapon rules in CC where released. I can see nothing so inherently powerful about duel spurs and we now have the wolverine clones useful without giving them special rules.

It has been clamed that this would leave the second weapon an unduly expensive choice (cash and essence) but this is not true unless it is always true of cyber weapons. There advantage is that they are highly consolable and can not be removed. This is equally true if you want to fight with 1 or 2 weapons.

If you ret try dr funks comparison with a max starting strength troll with +4 str from bio or cyber you get the following

Katana trollís Damage Code: 17M, Reach 2. 6 dice.
Spurs trollís Damage Code: 22M, Reach 1. 6 dice.

Now they both invest in Ambidexterity 3.

Katana trollís: 17M, Reach 2. 9 dice.
Spur trollís: 22M, Reach 1. 9 dice.

A much bigger difference but the balance isnít even my primary concern. I just donít think the weapons deserve special treatment because some players are overly enamored with a comic character. (not to say it wasnít a good comic. It was before my time unfortunately and I havenít been able to secure copies for reading.)

Edward
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Ol' Scratch
post Nov 17 2004, 04:19 AM
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Spur's Troll is still going to get his ass handed to him in both of those scenarios. That Reach 0 and equal dice means Katana Troll has all the cards on his table.
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kevyn668
post Nov 17 2004, 04:32 AM
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QUOTE
Edward
Posted on Nov 16 2004, 10:56 PM


If you ask me it is a blatant and unwarranted pandering to wolverine clones. A rule was wanted to make them worth the essence when SR3 was released so they made up the +50% strength. The name of the example character shows conclusively it was for the sole purpose of pandering to wolverine clones.

Personally I would have removed that bonus when the 2 weapon rules in CC where released. I can see nothing so inherently powerful about duel spurs and we now have the wolverine clones useful without giving them special rules.

It has been clamed that this would leave the second weapon an unduly expensive choice (cash and essence) but this is not true unless it is always true of cyber weapons. There advantage is that they are highly consolable and can not be removed. This is equally true if you want to fight with 1 or 2 weapons.

If you ret try dr funks comparison with a max starting strength troll with +4 str from bio or cyber you get the following

Katana trollís Damage Code: 17M, Reach 1. 6 dice.
Spurs trollís Damage Code: 22M, Reach 0. 6 dice.

Now they both invest in Ambidexterity 3.

Katana trollís: 17M, Reach 1. 9 dice.
Spur trollís: 22M, Reach 0. 9 dice.

A much bigger difference but the balance isnít even my primary concern. I just donít think the weapons deserve special treatment because some players are overly enamored with a comic character. (not to say it wasnít a good comic. It was before my time unfortunately and I havenít been able to secure copies for reading.)

Edward



Well, I guess your argument makes sense if 17 with a Reach 1 is that much easier to resist than 22 with a Reach 0.

Either way, you're still pretty screwed. Besides, you used a Troll. That changes the whole set up. If nothing else Trolls have a base Body of 6(7). It makes engaging them in melee a bit of a pisser just from a numbers point of view. I wont get into the psychological factors of fighting a 10 foot (3 meter) tall monster hand to hand.

Trolls have built in "balancers." They're Trolls, after all. If the Troll in question wants to be a terror in melee (as has been said before) let 'em. He has his place the same as the "all 1's otaku."

As for the Wolverine factor...get real, man. Everyone bases his or her character concept on something.

If you think comicbook characters, or movie characters, or anime characters don't have thier place in char gen, you're living in a fantasy world--no pun intended. :) Um, any Chow Yun Fat role/the guy from Equilibrium that I hear so much about(Preston somthingorother?)/Max Payne, and many others are all pretty common examples.

If some player wants to kick ass in melee, let him. If it offends you on a personal level you still have at least two options as a GM. 1) Have your sec guards carry SPAS-22's OR 2) make an NPC with a similar melee speciality and a serious jones to prove HE IS THE BEST--preferably at the expense of his PC counterpart. ;)

The Reduce Attribute (Charisma) is also VERy effective if you choose to allow such spell.

Its a game, after all. :)
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Edward
post Nov 17 2004, 05:20 AM
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Of cause literary characters have a place in character creation. Where I donít think they have a place is in system design.

Wolverine rip-offs got strength and a half power. what do I get from my dual katana character (that rips of more anime shows than I care to count, even if I only saw shorts for most of them)

And I made a mistake forgetting to add the trolls natural reach. I will edit.

Edward

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Fortune
post Nov 17 2004, 05:26 AM
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QUOTE (Edward)
what do I get from my dual katana character

You can't have one, according to canon. :D
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kevyn668
post Nov 17 2004, 05:30 AM
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QUOTE
Wolverine rip-offs got strength and a half power. what do I get from my dual katana character (that rips of more anime shows than I care to count, even if I only saw shorts for most of them)



Aside from flavor and [a cliched] character concept, you get two katanas. Go to town. Wear a Long Coat. :)
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Kanada Ten
post Nov 17 2004, 05:32 AM
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I thought the dual cyber implant was to help balance all those stupid gangers that took hand razors and spurs by making them dangerous.
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Ol' Scratch
post Nov 17 2004, 05:34 AM
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It pretty much was. It is a balance fix to keep a staple of cyberpunk fiction a viable option in the game. Kinda like the old HighPower ammo from earlier editions, and dikote to this day.
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kevyn668
post Nov 17 2004, 05:36 AM
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QUOTE (Kanada Ten)
I thought the dual cyber implant was to help balance all those stupid gangers that took hand razors and spurs by making them dangerous.

Bite your tongue, man! Dual spurs are cool!! :D
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Fortune
post Nov 17 2004, 05:37 AM
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Speaking of Dikote ... how much would it cost to cover the plates (or whatever) in a human-sized Armor Jacket?
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kevyn668
post Nov 17 2004, 05:39 AM
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QUOTE (Fortune)
Speaking of Dikote ... how much would it cost to cover the plates (or whatever) in a human-sized Armor Jacket?

You're joking right?

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Ol' Scratch
post Nov 17 2004, 05:40 AM
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I gave up trying to calculate actual sizes a long time ago, so this is just my opinion. 1> I wouldn't allow an Armored Jacket to have it since it really doesn't use plates (at least not expressely by presentation), but an Armored Vest w/ Plates does. 2> I use the formula [(Ballistic+Impact Armor)^2]/2. That gives you the number of units you need. For vehicles, I use (Body)^8.

That's just me, though. If I did allow an Armored Jacket to have it, the formula would result in the requirement of 32 units (5+3, squared, then halved) of Dikote. Excessive and mathematically overcomplicated for what it does because I have no math skillz? Perhaps. But it works for me. :)
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Fortune
post Nov 17 2004, 05:47 AM
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QUOTE (kevyn668 @ Nov 17 2004, 04:39 PM)
You're joking right?

When money is no problem, why not? ;)

Doc: That's cool, and probably not too excessive. I figure the Armor Jacket has to have some kind of plating, either ceramic or metal, given it's protective value.
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