 Bioware exceeding race, Is there proof in the puddin? |
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 Nov 19 2004, 06:42 PM
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Target  Group: Members Posts: 50 Joined: 29-October 04 Member No.: 6,793  |
I've used the search engine and come across a couple of mentions on the subject, but I was hoping for some definative answers (or at least informed opinions) on bioware. It's been stated by several people that bioware cannot raise abilities beyond their racial maximums for a variety of reasons. I was wondering if anyone had an actual quote or two to back that up, or if it was just an in-house ruling. The reason I ask is because in M&M I found the following to argue for bio being able to increase abilities beyond the racial maximum: Pg. 60, INTRODUCTION:
To me, this seems to refer to taking the body above what is normally possible, even for exceptional characters (which is to say above racial limits but not the racial maximums). I have read some people say that bio is simply replicating what an individual might accomplish on his or her own given enough training and karma. But an example of that not being the case, I believe, can be found in several of the bioware descriptions, including the following: Pg. 66, MUSCLE AUGMENTATION:
Pg. 66, MUSCLE TONER:
Both of these processes involve an addition to the muscle groups or body, if not a partial replacement. The fact that the implant is biological instead of technological is unimportant; it is still not natural. In any case, no matter how exceptional the individual is without these treatments, no amount of exercise, training, and karma burning is going to insert specially grown bio-cables into his body, nor make his muscles more elastic and flexible on a genetic level in the same way bioware does. Some bioware completely defies the "only up to racial maximum that could be achieved normally" argument because it adds organs or glands that would not otherwise exist in a normal (meta)human body: Pg. 69, SUPRATHYROID GLAND
For these reasons, I think that bio should be able to increase a characters attribute above the racial limitations. In addition to this seeming to make sense within the manner in which the rules were written, I think that it doesn't unbalance the game, as argued by some, as long as the G.M. pays attention to the drawbacks of bioware such as stress, longer healing times, ect. The cost and availaility can also be prohibitive, depending upon your game, and the incompatability of bioware with certain valuable cyberware can also prohibit rampant munchkanism. Thoughts? |
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Nov 19 2004, 06:47 PM
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#2
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Immortal Elf Group: Validating Posts: 7,999 Joined: 26-February 02 Member No.: 1,890 |
I'd look the quotes up for you, but I'm kinda busy at the moment. In a nutshell, the rules state that bioware improvements count as natural improvements to the attribute. Natural attributes, by default and definition, cannot exceed your race's Attribute Maximum without special compensation, such as with the Exceptional Attribute edge.
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Nov 19 2004, 06:48 PM
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#3
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Moving Target Group: Members Posts: 392 Joined: 18-October 04 From: Tujunga, CA Member No.: 6,768 |
I could have swarn that I read it in MaM, but check this out from Shadowrunrpg.com FAQ:
It says that attribute modifications from bioware are considered "natural" and not "augmented," meaning that they affect the attribute's base rating. Does this also mean that an attribute modified by bioware (not counting cyberware) cannot exceed the Attribute Maximum? What happens if my human character with natural Strength 6 (and Strength Attribute Maximum 9) gets muscle augmentation 4? Strictly speaking, bioware cannot raise an attribute's natural rating above the Attribute Maximum. So the human character described above simply doesn't need muscle augmentation 4 (and the street doc would probably tell him that ... or maybe not, and just give him muscle augmentation 3 and keep the change). If the character had muscle augmentation 4 installed anyway, his Strength would still be limited to 9. If you desire a more high-powered game, then you can ignore this rule and allow bioware to exceed Attribute Maximums. The character's natural attribute ratings should never be allowed to exceed the Attribute Maximums, however, and you may wish to inflict bioware-stuffed characters with system overstress or other excessive bioware drawbacks (p. 78, M&M). :) Its ok doc, I got this one. :) |
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Nov 19 2004, 06:59 PM
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#4
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Moving Target Group: Members Posts: 403 Joined: 27-August 02 From: Scotland Member No.: 3,175 |
Here are the relevant pages:
Since bioware counts as natural it's treated no differently for these purposes than raising the attribute with karma. So the limit for a normal human is 9, for example. Whereas if they raised Str to 9 with karma, they could still install Muscle Replacement to increase it beyond that, or quicken a spell, use physad powers, etc to do the same. A lot of people deliberately overlook the rule and let bioware increase your attributes beyond the normal limit. This post has been edited by Zeel De Mort: Nov 19 2004, 07:01 PM |
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Nov 19 2004, 07:00 PM
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#5
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Target Group: Members Posts: 50 Joined: 29-October 04 Member No.: 6,793 |
Hmmm....
Dr. Funk, The "by default and def" that you mention is found at the back of the SR3 book, correct? Isn't raising an ability above the racial limit to the racial maximum in and of itself an optional rule that states you can allow it if you choose? Not withstanding that everyone does it, do you think that undercuts your argument? I don't have the book here, so I'm not sure on this. Still, what about an added gland, as described with the hyperthyroid? It may be a natural bonus, but it is a decidedly unnatural...er...thingy. GaiasWrath8, I totally agree with the natural and augmented point, and see what you are saying in regards to the street doc. But my question about the gland would extend to you as well, or, to use another example, the tailored pheromones, which increase the natural attribute of Charisma. Again, not natural, per say. Zeel De Mort, Again, I understand that reading of the text, but I had always seen that as a clarification for bioware that increased quickness or intellegence stats being used to calculate a new reaction rating. I certainly see your point, though... I'm not disagreeing with any of you in terms of interpritation, since I'm a firm believer in the idea of whatever works in your game, cool, but from a 'cannon' point of view it seems murky, and one of my old players brought up the subject. Thanks for the input. |
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Nov 19 2004, 07:06 PM
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#6
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Moving Target Group: Members Posts: 403 Joined: 27-August 02 From: Scotland Member No.: 3,175 |
By the rules, no, adrenal gland is exactly the same kind of increase as muscle augmentation is, as far as how much you can increase an attribute by.
Personally I'd let any kind of bioware increase attributes beyond the maximum, but if you want to go absolutely by the book then it's quite clear on the fact that you can't, no matter which bit of bioware it is. Incidentally, Tailored Pheromones don't increase your charisma, they just give you extra dice on charisma tests (and social tests) when the subject is in range. So those would allow you to roll more dice than your attribute maximum on charisma tests. |
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Nov 19 2004, 07:08 PM
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#7
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Target Group: Members Posts: 50 Joined: 29-October 04 Member No.: 6,793 |
Stupid Deadeye, stupid! Undercut own argument with sloppy reading. Someone please slap me with a fish.
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Nov 19 2004, 08:43 PM
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#8
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Moving Target Group: Members Posts: 392 Joined: 18-October 04 From: Tujunga, CA Member No.: 6,768 |
Um the tailored pheromones don't incress yuor physical Cha, they make you smell good, they have no affect over the phone. ;) So this could not be part of your question about racial maxes. |
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Nov 20 2004, 03:39 AM
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#9
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Moving Target Group: Members Posts: 565 Joined: 7-January 04 Member No.: 5,965 |
The only way you can exceed your race limits are with edges (for any attribute) or genetic engineering (for physical attributes).
It would be interesting to see someone who had all 3 physical attributes limits increased by genetic modification before birth. Throw in calctonin for an extra +1 body just because. 1.9 bio index and 191,250 nuyen. (unless the .75 apllies to bio index as well as cost?) |
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Nov 20 2004, 03:43 AM
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#10
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Immoral Elf Group: Members Posts: 15,247 Joined: 29-March 02 From: Grimy Pete's Bar & Laundromat Member No.: 2,486 |
... or with Magic, or Cyberware! ;) |
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Nov 20 2004, 03:53 AM
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#11
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Moving Target Group: Members Posts: 403 Joined: 27-August 02 From: Scotland Member No.: 3,175 |
Or drugs, one would think. Or even nanotech for that matter.
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Nov 20 2004, 04:04 AM
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#12
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Immoral Elf Group: Members Posts: 15,247 Joined: 29-March 02 From: Grimy Pete's Bar & Laundromat Member No.: 2,486 |
It's easier to say 'the only ways you can't exceed your racial limits are either naturally, or through bioware'.
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