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> Wow, I just realized that you can't make an M15, using firearm customization from CC
Wounded Ronin
post Nov 21 2004, 05:21 AM
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I was sitting down this evening and decided it would be fun to make a M15 rifle using the firearms customization rules in Cannon Companion.

However, I found out that it's actually impossible to do this for two reasons:
1.) It seems impossible to remove BF mode from any given firearm frame. Although the Full Auto customization on page 82 removes Burst Fire, it only affects pistols or SMGs, apparently.
2.) Getting 20 ammo capacity just from the frame seems to be impossible for the frames that would be appropriate for an M15. But I guess that could probably be remedied by the Extended Clip mod on pg. 81. However, it seems like you'd have to carefully select a base ammo capacity less than 20 rounds for that to work.

Does anyone have an idea on how to get around problem number 1, which seems like the biggest obstacle? Or is it...impossible! (doomed, doomed, dooooomed!)

(It seems like you could achieve 20 round magazine and SA/FA fire modes using the submachinegun frame, but that would be really really inappropriate for a M15.)
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Ol' Scratch
post Nov 21 2004, 05:46 AM
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1) Use the DP cost but reverse all the other characteristics for adding BF to your frame via the Firing Mode design option.

2) The Improved Ammo Capacity design option is only used with internal magazines (like what many shotguns use) or cylinder-fed weapons. Weapons with the Ammo Type of Clip use the Extended Clip customization option. If you're concerned by the lack of a change in the Concealability the latter option lacks, just follow the same Concealability rules as the Improved Ammo Capacity option. If you're worried because the base Ammo count is higher than what you're looking for, either follow the advice in #1 and apply it to the Extended Clips option, or just lower it to your preference.
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Arethusa
post Nov 21 2004, 05:58 AM
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Out of curiosity, why an M15?
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Clyde
post Nov 21 2004, 07:21 AM
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What is an M15?
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KarmaInferno
post Nov 21 2004, 07:30 AM
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Perhaps he means AR15?


-karma
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mfb
post Nov 21 2004, 07:35 AM
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no, he meant M15. or, well, he could have. the M15 looks like an M16, but it's chambered in 7.62mm. it has single-shot and full-auto. honestly, with the 7.62mm round, i'd be inclined to classify an M15 as an LMG, not an AR. the M15 was intended for use as a SAW, after all.

info. make sure your pop-up blockers are on.
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Wounded Ronin
post Nov 21 2004, 08:27 AM
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QUOTE (Arethusa @ Nov 21 2004, 12:58 AM)
Out of curiosity, why an M15?

Because I enjoy throwing in classic guns sometimes to my shadowrun games.

In the past, I would simply arbitrarily write up a set of stats to represent, say, a Grease Gun or something and give it to an NPC.

But I figured it would be cool to design an M15 that theoretically PCs could legally buy/start with.

And yes, I meant M15, not AR15. It wouldn't be hard to make an AR15 with the customization rules, since the AR15 would just have some minor variations on the Assault Rifle frame, probably. Besides, M15s are much cooler. It seems like whenever you talk to a Vietnam Vet who used both the M15 and the old M16A1, they seem to universally think the M15 is a better rifle.

I was rather grappling with the issue on how to port the power and feel of a classic battle rifle to SR.
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mfb
post Nov 21 2004, 08:31 AM
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i never make battle rifles with the AR frame. i always go with either a sport rifle frame, or an LMG frame.
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Austere Emancipa...
post Nov 21 2004, 12:14 PM
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QUOTE (Daniel E. Watters @ http://www.thegunzone.com/556dw-1.html)
The T44E4 and T44E5 rifles are adopted as "US Rifles, 7.62mm M14 and M15." (None of the heavy barrel M15 will ever be produced for issue prior to the M15 being declared obsolete in December 1959.)

Similar notes are included in the World.Guns.Ru page for the M14 ("The M15, a heavy barreled weapon, however, was never brought into production.") and elsewhere. This causes me to wonder how there can possibly be a number of Vietnam veterans who have fired one.

It also seems pretty weird that anyone can simply say the M15 is "better" than the M16A1, since they are so obviously different -- the M15 is basically a SAW, the modernized version of the BAR, while the M16A1 is just an assault rifle. The M15 is definitely not a "classic battle rifle", the M14 is.

Since the M15 was a SAW version with a heavy, quick-change barrel, an integral bipod and other modifications on the M14 to allow for more sustained fire, using the LMG frame might work better in this case. Sport Rifle doesn't work too well, because it only allows SA/BF and not SA/FA -- although the LMG doesn't actually allow SA/FA either.
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toturi
post Nov 21 2004, 02:04 PM
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You are looking for something that gives SA/BF/FA. Remember BF in SR is not always a fire setting.
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Austere Emancipa...
post Nov 21 2004, 04:33 PM
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QUOTE (toturi)
Remember BF in SR is not always a fire setting.

Sorry? BF is definitely always a separate mode of fire that the weapon either is or is not capable of. In SR, that is.
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Da9iel
post Nov 21 2004, 04:44 PM
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Correct me if I'm wrong, but I believe the argument is that one can fire short bursts (with brief trigger pulls) with an M-15 IRL. (Making its IRL modes (SA/?)BF/FA) Forgive my unfamiliarity with the weapon.
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Austere Emancipa...
post Nov 21 2004, 05:00 PM
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Well, yeah, you could say that about every and each weapon capable of fully automatic fire -- apart perhaps from miniguns.

...And looking at the canon weapon lists it hits me that there is not a single SA/FA only small arm. Which makes sense. So, OK, these weapons certainly can and maybe should have SA/BF/FA in SR.

I'm pretty sure by now that Wounded Ronin actually meant an M14, though.
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hobgoblin
post Nov 21 2004, 05:17 PM
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hmm, i theory you can pull of a BF useing FA in sr to. i think the lowest number of rounds that can be fired in FA is 3 (excluding stuff like running out of ammo). your wasteing a good action tho...
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lodestar
post Nov 21 2004, 05:23 PM
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This looks like an "Ask Raygun" thread. ;)
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mfb
post Nov 21 2004, 07:31 PM
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there are two significant differences between firing three rounds in BF and three rounds in FA. one, you can't aim and shoot three rounds using FA during a single initiative pass; firing any number of rounds in FA is a complex action. two, you can't call your shot with FA fire.
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Shockwave_IIc
post Nov 21 2004, 07:38 PM
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And the fact it's a 5 round minium
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Austere Emancipa...
post Nov 21 2004, 07:40 PM
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If you use the logic that any FA-capable weapon can be fired just 3 rounds at a time and thus all FA-capable weapons should automatically have a BF-mode available as well, then it should not require a Switch Mode action to change between firing BF and FA. This is why it's a bit weird that all FA-capable weapons in SR are in fact BF-capable as well.

QUOTE (Shockwave_IIc)
And the fact it's a 5 round minium

No such restriction exists, at least in the parts dealing with Fully Automatic fire in the Combat section of SR3. It does say "Each burst must be at least 3 rounds" or something to that effect, with the exception of mags/belts running short.
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Ol' Scratch
post Nov 21 2004, 07:45 PM
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Eh, just rationalize it out a bit. Say that action is you setting yourself up so that you can time it just right or something. I dunno. It's too minor of a detail to sweat over, and in this case in particularly it results in little more than complaining about the system just for the sake of complaining about the system. If your logic can't handle it, just assume it takes no action to switch modes.
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mfb
post Nov 21 2004, 07:49 PM
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eh, it should require some skill to be able to fire a three-round burst on FA. not a lot of skill, sure, but some. if you're looking for a houserule, i'd say the minimum number of rounds you should be able to fire in one burst should be 6-skill, to a minimum of 3. if you wanna roll way, way too many dice, you could even do something like making each FA burst 3 +(1d6/2 -skill), minimum 3.

edited for war story: heh, reminds me of a guy named hicks, back in the army. we were doing a live-fire exercise, defending our position against a field full of pop-up targets at night. hicks was on the SAW, where he was supposed to be firing 3-5 rnd bursts at the bad guys, focusing on the ones at the outer limits of the engagement--around 400 yards. but his firing safety/instructor can hear that he's only firing 2 rounds every time--pop-pop, pop-pop, pop-pop.

"hicks, what the hell! 3-5 round bursts, man, that's what that weapon's for!"

"but sarge," hicks says, "i only need two rounds to hit them!"

"...carry on!"
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Austere Emancipa...
post Nov 21 2004, 08:07 PM
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Firing exactly 3 rounds every time, that takes skill. Firing about 3, give or take 1, every time takes fuck-all, until you get into 1200+rpm cyclic RoFs. You can certainly do it without putting any effort into "timing it just right".

And no, Doctor Funkenstein, this particular issue will not completely crash my suspension disbelief or anything. It's not as if it works like that in my game anyway. However, it is illogical, and I felt like pointing that out (I originally said it's "a bit weird", which shows about how strongly I feel about it...). Because, well, I like pointing out illogical things, especially when they could be fixed very easily -- in this case either by allowing both BF and FA while in the FA-mode, or by simply removing BF from weapons which in fact do not have a BF-mode (while the latter isn't realistic, it would at least make more sense than the current system).
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mfb
post Nov 21 2004, 08:13 PM
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yeah, austere, but if you fire 4 rounds, you're not using a simple action anymore. that's an important difference.
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Arethusa
post Nov 21 2004, 08:24 PM
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So let it be a simple action. Is that seriously a problem?

2-4 rounds at GM discretion for sone firing bursts while in full auto sounds fine to me. You can add in some absurdly time consuming mechanic for determining just how many rounds are fired, but that's obviously a stupid waste of time.
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mfb
post Nov 21 2004, 08:31 PM
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to me, yeah, it's a problem. SR's crazy-ass initiative system already allows way too much to happen in 3 seconds, as it is. something that allows characters to do even more, in that 3 seconds, is not something i'm probably ever going to subscribe to.
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Austere Emancipa...
post Nov 21 2004, 08:40 PM
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QUOTE (mfb)
to me, yeah, it's a problem.

Then you would probably be better off removing the BF mode from weapons which don't, in fact, have a BF mode, but are given it only because of the assumption that a FA-capable weapon can be fired in short bursts.
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