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> Hydraulic Jacks: ECU Cost?, Per Leg or Total?
Cray74
post Nov 22 2004, 11:01 PM
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The ECU Cost of Hydraulic Jacks is 4+0.5/rating point. Okay.

Is that per cyberleg, or total?
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GaiasWrath8
post Nov 22 2004, 11:13 PM
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per leg. Sorry
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Cray74
post Nov 22 2004, 11:53 PM
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QUOTE (GaiasWrath8)
per leg. Sorry

Was that errata'd, or otherwise spelled out in some rule book?
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Fortune
post Nov 23 2004, 03:11 AM
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As far as I know, unless otherwise specified, ECU costs are for the entire implant (as are the listed Essence and monetary costs).
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Ol' Scratch
post Nov 23 2004, 03:37 AM
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Let's put it this way. It doesn't make any sense for it to apply to both legs since no other ECU costs are handled that way. If it were, you could put all 4 ECU into a single leg and fill the other to the brim without "wasting" any space since, afterall, you already paid your 4 ECU off and nothing says that you have to split it evenly between two legs (because the assumption is that's the cost per leg).

Considering that it's also a more intensive system than a mere Telescoping Limb (which is 3 ECU per limb), 4 ECU per limb is completely rationale.
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Fortune
post Nov 23 2004, 03:54 AM
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Fair enough. :)
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Cray74
post Nov 24 2004, 04:09 PM
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QUOTE (Doctor Funkenstein)
Considering that it's also a more intensive system than a mere Telescoping Limb (which is 3 ECU per limb), 4 ECU per limb is completely rationale.


Actually, it's closer to 6 or 6.5 ECU for hydraulic jacks of high rating. That really chews up the elbow room on synthetic limbs.

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Ol' Scratch
post Nov 24 2004, 04:10 PM
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That's the price you pay for the advantage. Quit your bitching. :D
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Cray74
post Nov 24 2004, 06:42 PM
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QUOTE (Doctor Funkenstein)
That's the price you pay for the advantage. Quit your bitching. :D

It's not that much of an advantage, not 6.5 ECU worth. :P
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Buzzed
post Nov 24 2004, 07:35 PM
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Actually we already had this discussion. It is for both legs. It is called Hydraulic Jacks not Hydraulic Jack.

The S means plural.
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Cray74
post Nov 24 2004, 07:42 PM
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QUOTE (Buzzed)
Actually we already had this discussion. It is for both legs. It is called Hydraulic Jacks not Hydraulic Jack.

The S means plural.

Sure. Where is that discussion? The search feature doesn't turn up a lot of threads on hydraulic jacks.
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Ol' Scratch
post Nov 24 2004, 07:55 PM
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QUOTE (Cray74 @ Nov 24 2004, 12:42 PM)
QUOTE (Doctor Funkenstein @ Nov 24 2004, 04:10 PM)
That's the price you pay for the advantage.  Quit your bitching. :D

It's not that much of an advantage, not 6.5 ECU worth. :P

Considering it takes 5 ECU per limb just to get a +1 Armor bonus, I'd say it's about right. Sure, there's better stuff you could do with all that ECU, but that doesn't mean it should take up less ECU in and of itself... especially considering it takes up over 1 point of Essence on its own as a regular implant. Hell, even Retractable Cyberskates take up nearly as much ECU.
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Rev
post Nov 24 2004, 09:09 PM
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Cyberskates, retractable climbing claws, retractable fingertip razors (whatever those are called :)), and foot anchor are all mods that by default apply to a pair of limbs. All of these have one EC value listed and nowhere does it say that it is per limb.

Several others (magnetic system, shock hand, cyber fins) specify per limb.

The table in the back of m&m says that the EC is for the enhancement whereas the note for cyberlimb EC space says it is per limb.

Thus I think that the EC costs for the first set are for the entire system, or both limbs just like the essence and newyen costs.

In my opinion it is a very good idea to require that the EC cost of the first set be split evenly between the two limbs, and to allow them to be split into two parts (eg a persom might have one cyber arm and have climbing claws installed by having half of it installed in the cyberhand and the other half in the flesh hand).
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Ol' Scratch
post Nov 24 2004, 09:36 PM
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You're free to do whatever you like, as always, but it's pretty bleeding obvious that it applies per limb if for no other reason than that there are no rules whatsoever for splitting ECU between multiple limbs.

As mentioned before, a Telescoping Limb is 3 ECU and a base Hydraulic Jack is 4 ECU; considering a Hydraulic Jack is very similar to a Telescoping Limb just with independant strength and shock absorbers thrown in -- the description for them even *says* that they're extensive implants -- that's just about right. To say that 's actually 2/2 is just poor reasoning. 2 ECU is *not* an extensive modification. A pistol takes up more space than that.

But, again, do whatever tickles your fancy in your games.
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GrinderTheTroll
post Nov 24 2004, 10:00 PM
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QUOTE (Cray74)
QUOTE (Buzzed @ Nov 24 2004, 07:35 PM)
Actually we already had this discussion. It is for both legs. It is called Hydraulic Jacks not Hydraulic Jack.

The S means plural.

Sure. Where is that discussion? The search feature doesn't turn up a lot of threads on hydraulic jacks.

I believe in MM there is something that says these types of modifications must be taken for each leg. There are others that have this requirement too, but your can get Individual CyberLegs/Limbs but can suffer from unbalanced Quickness and Stregnth.

HJ5 does give you and extra 5 dice for Athletics (running) tests (and for Stealth for some reason), so with a base skill of 6, that's 11 dice to improve your running movement. With a Q=6 and say 5 successes that's a 11 for the purposes for running, 17 max, that's alot of ground to cover (5.8 m/s compared to your regular 2.0 m/s).

Also helps with jumping distance (+20 to max distance per level) so a HJ5 would offer +100% running-jump distance (Q=6, then maxJump=12).

There is worse cyberware.
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Rev
post Nov 24 2004, 10:51 PM
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Shrug, if drfunk is correct the table in the back of m&m has several columns that refer to the entire system, and one that refers to half of the system while specifically noting that the ec refers to the enhancement and not noting that it is per limb, the ec costs table on pg 36 redundently specifies that cyberfins are per limb, the description of the magnetic system redundantly says it is per limb, several other mods are incorrectly refered to in the plural in various places, and the foot anchor mod which the description says is primarily intended for cyberfeet can not even fit into obvious cyberfeet and should have said cyberlegs. Bleeding obvious, eh?

Grinder find the rule, I happen to have the book with me so I looked for one and did not find it.
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GrinderTheTroll
post Nov 25 2004, 12:07 AM
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QUOTE (Rev)
Grinder find the rule, I happen to have the book with me so I looked for one and did not find it.

I've been frustrated too with the lack of consistant use for pluralism with referring to CyberLimb(s) and gear that goes in it. Honestly, we rarely used CyberLimbs until SR3 so I going off what I thought I remembered reading.

I'll have to check it out at home and get back to you, but I could be mistaken.
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Cray74
post Nov 25 2004, 12:10 AM
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QUOTE (GrinderTheTroll)
I'll have to check it out at home and get back to you, but I could be mistaken.


Well, no rush, it's going to be a while before the "jacked up" (har har) character is used, but the research on your part would be appreciated.
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Ol' Scratch
post Nov 25 2004, 12:21 AM
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QUOTE (Rev @ Nov 24 2004, 04:51 PM)
Shrug, if drfunk is correct the table in the back of m&m has several columns that refer to the entire system, and one that refers to half of the system while specifically noting that the ec refers to the enhancement and not noting that it is per limb, the ec costs table on pg 36 redundently specifies that cyberfins are per limb, the description of the magnetic system redundantly says it is per limb, several other mods are incorrectly refered to in the plural in various places,  and the foot anchor mod which the description says is primarily intended for cyberfeet can not even fit into obvious cyberfeet and should have said cyberlegs.  Bleeding obvious, eh?

Grinder find the rule, I happen to have the book with me so I looked for one and did not find it.

The rules never state it specifically. It's simple logic. Yes, purchase of the implant may imply that it applies to multiple limbs, but that doesn't mean it doesn't count against the ECU of each limb. Especially since -- stay with me one more time -- there are no rules for splitting ECU between multiple limbs. Your assuption that you split them evenly between the limbs has even less backing it up.

Let's look at some of the other implants that obviously come in pairs and see how they fare.

Cyberskates: 4 ECU for the retractable pair, which is the same space requirement as a Cyberholster. Considering skates are about the same size as a pistol (if not a touch bigger) and that it also includes all the retraction and bracing hardware for the implant, 4 ECU is about right per limb. 2 ECU would be wholly inappropriate.

Retractable Climbing Claws: While similar to Hand Razors, Climbing Claws are designed so that they can help you hold your entire body weight. Logically, that means it comes with quite a bit more reinforcing for the fingers and hands housing the claws that simple Hand Razors. Retractable Hand Razors are only 0.5 ECU per limb, whereas the next step up -- Retractable Hand Blades -- are 1.0 ECU per limb, it's not a big stretch to assume that Retractable Climbing Claws are closer to the 1.0 ECU end of the spectrum. And lo' and behold, look at that... they are.

So, since those two make perfect sense at its listed book rating per limb, and the ECU rating for Hydraulic Jacks make sense on a per limb rating (4-6 makes sense, 2-3 does not)... and since, once again, the rules never once even hint that ECU limits are ever listed in pairs and that you have to split them up between limbs... well, Occam's Razor.

Oh, as a side note, Foot Anchors and Hand Razors (retractable or not) are not bought in pairs. Technically, neither are Climbing Claws, which would explain why they're not mentioned as (per limb) on the ECU table.

This post has been edited by Doctor Funkenstein: Nov 25 2004, 12:38 AM
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Ol' Scratch
post Nov 25 2004, 01:04 AM
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Now that I think about it, the rules for Hydraulic Jacks never state that they're a paired implant, either, even though the context suggests as much.

Then there's also the fact that you can have only one Cyberleg and still get Hydraulic Jacks installed, yet the rules make no mention of that being a problem or how to resolve the situation (in Essence OR ECU ratings). Since they don't, one can argue that either 1) you don't actually need a pair or 2) that they, too, are listed across the board [Essence, cost, and ECU wise] on a per limb basis by default.
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Rev
post Nov 25 2004, 02:03 AM
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"Hydraulic jacks require extensive and obvious modification to the legs, making them most common among those with cyberlegs. Hydraulic jacks greatly increase the maximum...

A charachter equipped with hydraulic jacks adds ... Add a number of dice equal to the jacks'...
If a character can manage to land on his feet, hydraulic jacks..."

To be consistent if you think the EC cost is per limb then the non-cyberlimb hydraulic jack is .75 +0.25*rating essence per limb: worse than an entire cyberlimb. Luckily only one limb is needed to get the bonuses, as two are not specified. (Except of course in that they are everywhere refered to in the plural).

Similarly you only need climbing claws on one hand to get -2t# to all climbing.

To be silly one cyberskate lets you skate.

Assuming the authors just have sticky 's' keys or some version of turetts syndrome leading to unintended pluralization.

Anyhow I have better things to do than continue this.
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Ol' Scratch
post Nov 25 2004, 02:22 AM
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QUOTE (Rev)
To be consistent if you think the EC cost is per limb then the non-cyberlimb hydraulic jack is .75 +0.25*rating essence per limb: worse than an entire cyberlimb. Luckily only one limb is needed to get the bonuses, as two are not specified. (Except of course in that they are everywhere refered to in the plural).

I said it was arguable, not that I was defending that point of view. But I don't see you pointing out the other inconsistencies, like what the Essence cost is for only having it install in a single meat leg and a single cyberleg. Or what? Does that mean you have to admit that the author didn't even think of that when putting the rules together? Or is your argument so weak that you're simply going to continue to ignore it?

There's two -- count 'em, two -- implants that function this way. Both make complete and total sense at their listed ECU ratings per limb, but are woefully undervalued if they're supposed to be split in half and equally distributed between multiple limbs (which, once again, has no backing or precedence whatsoever anywhere in the rules).

QUOTE
Similarly you only need climbing claws on one hand to get -2t# to all climbing.

That's very likely the case. You'll note that the Damage Code they list is a base Damage Code, much like the case for Hand Razors. But, just like Hand Razors, you still have to buy them in pairs if you want them in both hands. In fact, you get a bonus to your Damage Code when you do. But I'm sure you'll continue to ignore that point, too.

Oh, but in case you don't ignore it and instead go spouting off with your "they're using plural terms!" spiel, a "climbing claw" would be a single talon on a single finger, not all of the claws of an entire hand.

QUOTE
To be silly one cyberskate lets you skate.

Nice bit of work there completely ignoring the logic above. Gotta love anyone who's entire argument revolves around "they used an S!!!" and little else. No logic. No solution for the one cyberleg bit. Nothing. Just "they used an S!!!"

QUOTE
Anyhow I have better things to do than continue this.

Ah. In that case, good riddance. :wavey:
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Tarantula
post Nov 29 2004, 02:59 AM
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QUOTE (M&M pg 36)
Hydraulic Jacks ECU: 4 + .5/rating Essence Cost: .25 Concealability Modifier: -3


Thats what is in the table for adding hydraulic jacks to someone who already has cyberlegs. Now, for those who argue that its 6.5 PER LEG for level 5 jacks, then is it also .25 essence per leg? Totalling .5 essence to get the modification? I don't think so, it says a straight .25 essence cost to get them, period. That means for both legs. Which says that the 6.5 ECU is also for both legs, and thusly is 3.25 per leg.

Note: Sorry about bringing this back from the recently deceased, but I'm making a character that this becomes rather crucial to know in.
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toturi
post Nov 29 2004, 05:30 AM
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Use them as you wish, Tarantula. But the prevailing opinion is that the ECU and Essense cost are for a single limb.

If your GM allows, go for it. But it is going to be opening one hell of a can of worms.
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Tarantula
post Nov 29 2004, 06:52 AM
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QUOTE (Doctor Funkenstein)
Cyberskates: 4 ECU for the retractable pair, which is the same space requirement as a Cyberholster. Considering skates are about the same size as a pistol (if not a touch bigger) and that it also includes all the retraction and bracing hardware for the implant, 4 ECU is about right per limb. 2 ECU would be wholly inappropriate.

As you said, 4 ECU for the pair. Same space as a cyber holster. You just said that both skates should take up the same amount of space as 1 holster. Considering that the holster also slides the weapon out and into your hand for you, I'd agree. Now, for both skates to take up the same space as a holster, you have to..... SPLIT THE ECU. You just disagreed with yourself. Also note that a computer takes up 3 ECU, and a cyberdeck 5.


Heres a different arguement for hydraulic jacks.

Compare them to other cyberware. I'll use flex hands. "This modification replaces most of the bones in the hands with a" blah blah blah. Now, flex hands does both hands, yes? Now, the essence for this covers having it done to both hands right? Think of some cyberware being you have this or you don't. And others being specified per limb or not. A cyberleg is per limb, as you can get up to two of them. Flex hands is you have it, or you don't, as having it puts it in both hands, or none, there is no in between.

The same is with hydraulic jacks. You have it, or you don't. It goes in both legs, or none. If you have 1 real leg, and 1 cyber leg, half the costs of both, and do it that way. If you have two cyberlegs, thats the total between them. If you have 2 real legs, thats the total between them. At least, thats how I see it.
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