 Hydraulic Jacks: ECU Cost?, Per Leg or Total? |
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 Nov 29 2004, 07:29 AM
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#26
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Canon Companion  Group: Members Posts: 8,021 Joined: 2-March 03 From: The Morgue, Singapore LTG Member No.: 4,187  |
Actually I think he meant a single skate is about the size of a pistol. Therefore it makes sense to have 4 ECU for the pair of retract skates.
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Nov 29 2004, 07:48 AM
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#27
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Immortal Elf Group: Validating Posts: 7,999 Joined: 26-February 02 Member No.: 1,890 |
No, "skates" can be used for the singular, too (hence "pair of skates"), and that was the way I was using it. A single skate (better?) is roughly the same size as a pistol. A single cyberholster takes up 4 ECU. A single cyberskate, complete with the retraction and housing mechanisms, should/does take up 4 ECU per limb, just like cyberholsters do.
I never said otherwise, though in this case it's a moot point since Flex Hands are apparently unavailable as accessories for cyberhands. However, I think you missed my original point. I agree that the costs (for Essence and nuyen) include the entire set. The amount of ECU, however, obliviously (when compared to the requirements of other similarly-sized options) are dependant on each limb. There is NO precedent whatsoever in the rules that even hints that you split ECU costs between multiple limbs. There ARE examples of per limb ECU ratings when dealing with implants that come in pairs, however. The rules never state one way or the other, but I prefer to side with logic rather than cheesiness. If you want to accept that an EXTENSIVE (it's right there in the description) and MASSIVE reinforcement of the entire limb, including the addition of an entire hydraulic system, shock absorbers, and a system similar to a Telescopic Limb should only take up a piddly 2-3 ECU per limb while a Telescopic Limb alone takes up 3 ECU per limb, that's your perorgative. You'll just be one of those players who rapes the rules just so you can cram some other tinker toy into your limbs. Knock yourself out. I couldn't care less as it won't have any affect on my games or my playing style. So have a blast. I think it's silly anyway. Hydraulic Jacks are amongst the lamest implants in the game, and the Essence, cash, and ECU could be spent on far more interesting and useful things. But... whatever. |
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Nov 29 2004, 08:11 AM
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#28
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Dragon Group: Members Posts: 4,664 Joined: 21-September 04 From: Arvada, CO Member No.: 6,686 |
Other than the fact that MUCH of the "extensive" reinforcing now no longer needs to be done because your legs are metal, this is another reason to rule for the 2.25-3.25 range of ECU cost for the jacks per limb. They aren't that good, this helps make the cost of putting them in manageable. |
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Nov 29 2004, 08:59 AM
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#29
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Immortal Elf Group: Validating Posts: 7,999 Joined: 26-February 02 Member No.: 1,890 |
Once again: Have a blast cheesing out. You're the one who has to live with the decision.
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Nov 29 2004, 02:29 PM
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#30
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Running Target Group: Members Posts: 1,428 Joined: 9-June 02 Member No.: 2,860 |
LOL! :) I don't particularly see hydraulic jacks as cheesy at 3.25ECU/limb. It's not like hydraulic jacks will let the runner suddenly slaughter security guards faster than ever. The main improvement in runner firepower came initiative enhancements and the smart link. Hydraulic jacks are good for jumping and falling. And, maybe this is specific to the games I'm in, but I don't recall a single jump requiring an Athletics test in the past dozen sessions. Hydraulic jacks are an expensive fluff item. |
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Nov 29 2004, 03:55 PM
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#31
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Dragon Group: Members Posts: 4,664 Joined: 21-September 04 From: Arvada, CO Member No.: 6,686 |
Thank you for at least making me feel not utterly crazy. I agree, bonus to jumping and such is not worth 6.5 ECU a leg. Thats a total of 13 ECU. Cannonly, thats as much space as 2 medkits and a heavy pistol. Bit much isn't it? |
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Nov 29 2004, 04:03 PM
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#32
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Canon Companion Group: Members Posts: 8,021 Joined: 2-March 03 From: The Morgue, Singapore LTG Member No.: 4,187 |
No, it isn't. It is only 6.5 ECU per leg only if you boosted the ratings of the hydraulic jack, otherwise, it is smaller.
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Nov 29 2004, 04:08 PM
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#33
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Dragon Group: Members Posts: 4,664 Joined: 21-September 04 From: Arvada, CO Member No.: 6,686 |
True, for a rating 1 jack it would be 4.5/leg totalling 9, enough for a medkit, heavy pistol, and a knife. |
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Nov 29 2004, 05:39 PM
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#34
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Immortal Elf Group: Validating Posts: 7,999 Joined: 26-February 02 Member No.: 1,890 |
You won't see me argue that. In fact, I haven't -- even pointed out that they're not worth their values (ECU or otherwise). That doesn't change the fact that the implant, as described, requires a lot of space and modification to the limbs... far more than a piddly 3 ECU. The cheesiness that I was talking about wasn't aimed towards the implant, but trying to "cheat" the rules so you can cram more than you should into your limbs. Yes, Hydraulic Jacks suck. No, that doesn't mean you should ignore the consequences of their installation because of that (especially since this is one of the reasons why Hydraulic Jacks suck). If you want to look at it from a value point of view, you're exchanging a little more than half the ECU of your synthetic legs (and only a fraction if you put 'em in obvious legs) for the huge Essence cost they normally suck up. In that sense, they're a bargain. But no matter how you look at it -- ECU or Essence -- they still bite the big one compared to their benefits. Doesn't mean you should be able to get them at a steal just because you're putting them in cyberlegs, though, anymore than you should say that you should split the Essence in half because you're installing them in two legs.
A pair of cyberholsters take up enough space for a complete off-the shelf and unmodified cyberdeck and a heavy pistol, too. A pair of cyberarm gyromounts take up the same amount of space. So what's your point? That some implants take up more ECU than others? Who woulda thunk that? |
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Nov 29 2004, 05:46 PM
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#35
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Dragon Group: Members Posts: 4,664 Joined: 21-September 04 From: Arvada, CO Member No.: 6,686 |
I'm just saying, that a LOT of the extensive bracing and reinforcing of the modification doesn't need to be done anymore because of the fact that your legs are now completely cyber. Because of that, 3 ECU or so DOES make sense for adding some small hydraulics into them. How could you possibly brace a metal leg better with more metal? I'd say the hydraulic part of the system (which is about all you're installing when you put it in a cyberleg) is around the size of a heavy pistol, or 3 ECU per leg. I.E. splitting the ECU cost.
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Nov 29 2004, 05:53 PM
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#36
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Immortal Elf Group: Validating Posts: 7,999 Joined: 26-February 02 Member No.: 1,890 |
No, they still require extensive modifications. Standard cyberlegs are not designed to turn you into a leaping fool anymore than meat legs are; at best they give you +2 Body to resist the damage from a fall. That's it. You still need the shock absorbers and integrity enhancements needed to insure the leg -- and the person its attached to -- survives the fall in addition to all the modifications needed just to propel the leg -- and the person its attached to -- with more gusto.
And no, 2.25 ECU does not make sense for a complete hydraulic system and mini-telescoping leg alone, even if you want to ignore the structural enhancements. There's no way in hell it should take up less space than a cyberarm gyromount or even a friggin' signal booster. |
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Nov 29 2004, 06:03 PM
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#37
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Dragon Group: Members Posts: 4,664 Joined: 21-September 04 From: Arvada, CO Member No.: 6,686 |
They hydraulic system works both ways, both as a shock absorber as well as a means to propel said person skywards. Do a google search for hydraulic shocks.
Unless your leg is synthetic, any re-inforcing modifications to it would be on the OUTSIDE of the leg, reinforcing the structual integrety of it. The essence cost is easily explained in ensuring that the person the legs are attached to will be able to take the shock as well as control for using the jacks to jump higher with. |
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Nov 29 2004, 06:08 PM
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#38
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Moving Target Group: Members Posts: 485 Joined: 25-October 04 Member No.: 6,789 |
Actually I agree with the splitting among the legs if only becuase the hydrualic systems in this case would completely replace the the bone structure that had been there. Thus freeing up a bit of room. Honestly though i would not allow a hydraulic system in aa telescopic limb just becuase of the major incongruities.
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Nov 29 2004, 06:08 PM
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#39
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Immortal Elf Group: Validating Posts: 7,999 Joined: 26-February 02 Member No.: 1,890 |
Look, I said it before and I'll say it again: Whatever. Do what you want. Be a dork and go with the 2.25 ECU. It's your game. I don't care.
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Nov 29 2004, 06:10 PM
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#40
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Running Target Group: Members Posts: 1,428 Joined: 9-June 02 Member No.: 2,860 |
Were the jacks a standalone item not using available systems in the legs, I'd agree. But in cyberlegs, there's already existing equipment that can do the job, with modification: the existing motors/myomers/hydraulics. Adding a hydraulic accumulator or electrical capacitor to overcharge existing systems for big jump, or soak up the energy of a drop, shouldn't need 6.5 ECU per leg, even at rating 5.
Consequences? You get little gain for little ECU cost. You're saving a max of about 3 ECU per leg, which is not going to have major consequences.
The lower rating jacks aren't worth talking about, and give even proportionally less benefit per ECU. |
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Nov 29 2004, 06:11 PM
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#41
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Dragon Group: Members Posts: 4,664 Joined: 21-September 04 From: Arvada, CO Member No.: 6,686 |
I would disagree with that. You can have a telescopic limb and hydraulic jacks. You just can't use the hydraulic jacks while your limb is telescoped out. |
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Nov 29 2004, 06:15 PM
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#42
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Immortal Elf Group: Validating Posts: 7,999 Joined: 26-February 02 Member No.: 1,890 |
3 ECU is more than enough space to get a Guardian Angel Nano-Biomonitor installed (not to mention enough room for another complete Hydraulic Jack system with your interpretation). I'd say that's a pretty major consequence. |
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Nov 29 2004, 06:18 PM
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#43
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Running Target Group: Members Posts: 1,428 Joined: 9-June 02 Member No.: 2,860 |
Woo, it's about time cyberlimbs could do something useful. As far as major consequences go, this sounds like a very useful one. |
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Nov 29 2004, 06:18 PM
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#44
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Dragon Group: Members Posts: 4,664 Joined: 21-September 04 From: Arvada, CO Member No.: 6,686 |
Opposed to your version. In which you save 13 ECU by not getting the jacks because they're not worth the amount, and get the guardian angel, a cyber holster, a cyberdeck and a knife put in instead. |
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Nov 29 2004, 06:19 PM
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#45
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Immortal Elf Group: Validating Posts: 7,999 Joined: 26-February 02 Member No.: 1,890 |
Yep. That's exactly what I'm saying.
There's tons of great things you can do with cyberlimbs. Hydraulic Jacks just happen to be one of the things that are less than great. Significantly less. |
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Nov 29 2004, 06:25 PM
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#46
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Dragon Group: Members Posts: 4,664 Joined: 21-September 04 From: Arvada, CO Member No.: 6,686 |
Especially with your interpretation. At least at 3.25 ECU a piece, they might actually be an option someone would consider. |
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Nov 29 2004, 06:28 PM
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#47
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Moving Target Group: Members Posts: 485 Joined: 25-October 04 Member No.: 6,789 |
Easily enough solved here.
1. We all agree you need the hydraulic jacks in both legs to work. 2. Most of us understand that they replace the skeletal part of the the cyber leg. 3. They are not overly useful 4. They are not inherently game breaking So I propose we submit an Errate to Wizkids making the ECU cost 2.5+.5/level in each cyber leg. And that if you have it installed in one leg then it has to be for both and at equal level. This would make it a and even 5 ECU for a level 5 system in each leg. Cheaper than the original but more realistic with how it would be constructed. |
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Nov 29 2004, 06:50 PM
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#48
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Shooting Target Group: Members Posts: 1,754 Joined: 9-July 04 From: Modesto, CA Member No.: 6,465 |
Thing that bugs me is what if you only had one CyberLeg? Would you pay 1/2 essence for the real HJ and 1/2 the ECU and essence for the CyberLeg version? I wouldn't allow only one HJ to be installed, it make far more sence to have them in pairs than individual. I know the inconsistant wording makes it more questionable but we've assumed since CyberLimbs could be purchased seperately the cost was per limb. As for their usefulness, you get their rating in +Athletic (Running) Dice and +Stealth Dice (we are still trying to figure the logic in this one) as well as +20% per max jump distance bonuses. Personally, I like it when not all folks min/max their cyberware and make cookie-cutter sams. |
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Nov 29 2004, 06:56 PM
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#49
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Dragon Group: Members Posts: 4,664 Joined: 21-September 04 From: Arvada, CO Member No.: 6,686 |
As I said previously, yes, I would rule that you do Half the normal essence cost and half the ecu and essence for the other leg. While it was assumed the cost is per limb, why do other mods such as cyberfins specifically state that they are per limb? If HJ was per limb, shouldn't it have stated (per limb) as well? |
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Nov 29 2004, 07:00 PM
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#50
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Moving Target Group: Members Posts: 485 Joined: 25-October 04 Member No.: 6,789 |
Excellent point
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