Christian Totems, Could angels be used as such? Options

[Thistledown]

I've seen some web pages that dealt with Christian totems before, but I'm away from the computer that their marked on until sunday. If this thread is still going then, I'll put them up.

[Wounded Ronin]

A psycho Souther preacher might be a shaman. Because they scream.

[Ol' Scratch]

Note that I never said that Christian Shamanism wasn't possible, it's just that for the concept Dr. Jest put up, it wasn't appropriate. He was taken in and schooled in magic by the Church. The only thing remotely shamanistic is that he had an "invisible friend" which he manifested as the archangel Michael; but that's pretty common for all types of magicians when they first start to manifest their abilities.

[Garland]

@ Dr. Funk

My apologies for putting words in your mouth. You point things out so forcefully that in this case I felt I had to make a counterpoint.

@ audun

We're all adults here, no prob. The thing about saints was kind of what I was trying to say; it's a polytheistic trait in a monotheistic religion, something that Roman and Greek or whatever converts could identify with. So yeah, a lot of the idols can be worked in with no prob.

@WR

Agreed! The stereotypical snake-handling, ranting preacher is going to have a "personal relationship with his God", above and beyond that of the Good Book. Probably a nice fire-and-brimstone totem like Sky Father or something.

On the other hand, you can have a ranting preacher who feels the Good Book is the final Word, and the mystic secrets it imparts to him (through endless study) would seem to imply a more hermetic-style magic.

[DrJest]

Wow, I step out to kung fu for a couple of hours and the thread goes to two pages...

Doc, fair play in respect of the concept. Hermeticism seems to be the order of the day for the organised religions anyway.

Various others: I was thinking more in terms of angels than saints personally, since in the qabbalistic tradition the angels - and particularly the archangels - are all associated with specific concepts. To go off on a small tangent, an idea I thrashed out with a bunch of friends with variously differing belief systems is that all the gods, archangels, elementals etc are just different aspects of the same entities; so that what I call the archangel Michael, a follower of the Greek pantheon would call Athena, a Celtic Druid would call... probably Lugh (Celtic mythos isn't my strong point), an Egyptian pantheon might call Horus, etc.

[Garland]

I think SOTA 2064 spelled out Celtic totems (the idols they correspond to). I think Lugh was the Wild Huntsman. Somebody correct me if I'm wrong, I only read that part once.

[Joe Outside]

[ES_Riddle]

I'm in the process of creating a Catholic physad whose patron saint is St. Michael. I'm just going with the Dragonslayer idol bonuses, since it seems appropriate to me.

IIRC (I don't have a MitS handy), the description of some of the idols includes a mention that some of them are followed by Christians. I think a lot of the idols and some of the totems (Dove for example) can fit in for the awakened Christian who feels a strong bond for a particular saint, angel, or aspect of God. You should just do what the Church did to convert pagans; choose an idol that resembles the saint and run with it.

[Kagetenshi]

[Siege]

I like the idea - it follows the symbolism nicely and for all practical purposes, Saints tend to fulfill the same role.

Of course, Devil Worshippers take on a whole new level of creepy...

-Siege

[Guest_Crimsondude 2.0_*]

[Siege]

Care to take a stab at their Shamanic masks?

-Siege

[ES_Riddle]

I think that St. Michael, who defeats THE Dragon and casts him from heaven is a fine fit. St. George could work also. The beauty of it is that you can have a dozen different saints that are all slightly different takes on the same idol.

[Johnny Reb]

[Siege]

[Synner]

Since I'm way too busy to go over a lot the same ground again, anyone really interested can find some relevant comments on this issue here (the last time this discussion came up).

One important point several people have already made, and I'd like to underline, is there is an immense difference between the way Catholic, Orthodox, Reformist Protestant and Evangelical Protestant Christians all see magic and more importantly how they believe it could possibly work within their distinct cosmologies.

SOTA64 has some ideas but there's a lot more to it than would ever fit there. If you have the Grimoires, Awakenings and Threats 2 on hand to cross-reference things will begin to add up.

SR Canon assumes the Catholic Church (and many Reformist Protestant denominations') doctrine allows for a form of "sanitized" Hermetic magic called Theurgy (based on RL precedents btw). Catholic Theurgy undoubtedly allows for the "Cult of the Saints and Archangels" (an aspect of the Catholic religious practice) although it is suggested this be addressed as per the Archangelic patrons in the Templars chapter of Threats 2 rather than as idols (just the choice of word is bound to cause problems). However, in the other thread (above) I've tried to explain some of the inherent difficulties of being a Catholic shaman, especially one in the Church (mostly to do with mindset, doctrinal complications and the catch 22 regarding the nature of one's gift). Also, as I mention therein, this doesn't rule out the possibility and I for one think there'll be a few shamans in the ranks of the Sylvestrines and Vigilia Evangelica (though not in the far stricter and fanatical New Templars).

Note however that other Christian denominations allow for a much more ecstatic and personal relation with God than the Catholic faith and would obvious allow much more freedom to integrate Christian shamans.

[Kanada Ten]

Voodoo is essentially the result of Christian Shamanism. I'd look to it and Santeria as the basis of such devotion.

[ES_Riddle]

[Johnny Reb]

[Kanada Ten]

The CAS put a bounty on magicians that raise the dead, not anything else. The Adversary is the idol for a Satanist Shaman.

[edit] And a Toxic Christian Shaman is not a Satanist: they are Jesus as the avenger; the lion come to destroy the sinners without mercy, and make the world pure again.

[Guest_Crimsondude 2.0_*]

So, basically, the bastard Jesus in the last Left Behind novel...

As for the Satanists... Wow, John.... Wow.

[Glyph]

The interesting thing about Christian magicians is that you can have friction between the hermetic and shamanic approaches. The big difference isn't style - it's that hermetic Christians see magic and their religion as two separate things. They might consider their magical ability a gift from God, just like having superior athletic ability or an aptitude for math would be. But they don't think their magic comes from praying.

They might even be a bit appalled at shamanic Christians, watching someone summon spirits of man and calling them "angels", waving crosses around, etc. It would seem deluded at best, maybe even blasphemous. Shamanic Christians, on the other hand, would see hermetic Christians as either denying the true source of their powers, or, even worse, rejecting it to use "diabolical" powers instead. Lots of roleplaying opportunities...

[toturi]

[Glyph]

Okay, reading the link, where Synner talks about Theurgy, and it sounds like what I was saying... that "the Gift is a God-given talent like any other and that magic is a neutral force to be manipulated for good or for evil depending on intent." And he goes on to demonstrate how the Templars know that what they are using is hermetic magic. Yes, they say an invocation before using magic, but that's piety, not their view of how magic works.


Also, I was taking in more general terms, about a hermetic magician who happens to be a Christian versus someone who thinks that he is performing miracles and summoning angels.

[toturi]

The following quotes are taken from Threats 2 p108.