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> Trolls and their skulls and intelligence, Yes, another troll question
Botch
post Nov 24 2004, 06:28 PM
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All artwork in SR shows trolls with as large or larger proportioned skulls; almost no picture of a troll includes scalp covering hair. From this we can see that the cranial capacity of a troll is tremendous, yet they suffer the largest intelligence penalties.

After researching cranial capacity to straightforward intelligence measurements, there appears to be an issue; why aren't trolls the most intelligent meta-humans (Yes, I do know about game balance and I have since D&D 1st Ed was SOTA, so don't mention it, okay.)?

A trolls brain would have to be slightly (a few percent) larger to cope with the larger nervous system a troll body brings, but nowhere near the projected cranial capacity depicted in SR artwork. The brain would also have to be bigger to include sense enhancement (ie. Thermo), but that rationale has not been applied to dwarves so it ships water from the start.

Here's some reasons, which one/s do you prefer if forced to pick.

a) Addtional nerve feedback processing
b) Additional sense (IR vision)
c) Much, much stronger jaw muscles (think hyenas)
d) Much better sense of smell (think canine levels)
e) Mcuh better sense of taste (think snake)
f) Much more memory
g) "Spare capacity", in the event of brain damage a troll's brain can "re-wire" quickly.
h) Re-inforced skulls giving a noticeable level of (impact?) armour. Might be the reason trolls don't wear helmets, don't need to.
i) Additional blood filters and shock absorbtion for the brain (think giraffes and other headbutting species)

None of this is being done to seek a massive gamemech advantage, just a collection of justifications for why trolls are trolls and not just a thick human with big muscles who has a 25% tax on life.
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KarmaInferno
post Nov 24 2004, 06:34 PM
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Oh, yes, because we all know that those tests comparing african-american skulls to caucasion skulls done a few decades ago conclusively proved skull size = intelligence.

Or are blue whales the smartest creatures on earth?

:D

I do recall measurements taken of Einstein's brain after his death showed he had a smaller brain than average, but with a denser neuron network. Could be mis-remembering, though.


-karma
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Toxic_Waste
post Nov 24 2004, 06:41 PM
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Size isn't everything, it's how you use it :P
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Botch
post Nov 24 2004, 06:44 PM
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There is sod-all difference in cranial capacity of any human race. Take the time and work out how much bigger a troll skull is to a human skull; from most artwork it appears to have a width of a human TORSO.

A blue whale is intelligent, but its large brain is nowhere near proportional to its REALLY, REALLY, REALLY MASSIVE BODY.

Did you read this

QUOTE
A trolls brain would have to be slightly (a few percent) larger to cope with the larger nervous system a troll body brings


and think that it did not apply to the world's largest mamal?

Does anybody have constructive critism or even helpful comments or is it another "burn the witch" thread.

FYI - Some South American tribes have skulls that can be fractured from a strong punch, many Maories have skulls so thick that hitting them over the head with a club is no garantee that it will be damaged. Their skulls are noticable different in size, but remarkably similar in actuall cranial capacity. Trolls/humans on the otherhand appear to be more like Erectus/Sapien in comparison.
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Spookymonster
post Nov 24 2004, 06:44 PM
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Trolls have bigger heads, but thicker skulls (dermal plating, remember?). There brains are not necessarily any larger than a baseline human. As for their larger nervous system suggesting a bigger brain, didn't T. Rexx (significantly larger than a troll) have a brain the size of a walnut?
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Cray74
post Nov 24 2004, 06:47 PM
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QUOTE (Botch @ Nov 24 2004, 06:28 PM)
All artwork in SR shows trolls with as large or larger proportioned skulls; almost no picture of a troll includes scalp covering hair.  From this we can see that the cranial capacity of a troll is tremendous, yet they suffer the largest intelligence penalties.

Point: Neanderthals had a larger brain capacity than us (25% more brain volume, 1500cc vs 1200cc, on average). Based on their tool designs over hundreds of millennia, the cave dudes hardly innovated. Pee-brained homo sapien sapiens raced past them.

Point: Neanderthals had about the same body weight as humans, or not as dramatically different as trolls vs humans.

Point: Later homo erectus (0.5 million years+), a smaller critter than modern humans, had the same size brain as humans.

Point: The brain size of known human geniuses ranges from 1000cc to 2000cc, a factor of 2.

Conclusion: Within the approximate range of human brain sizes, there is dramatic variations in intelligence not linked to brain size.
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GrinderTheTroll
post Nov 24 2004, 06:50 PM
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Two words:

GAME BALANCE.
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littlesean
post Nov 24 2004, 06:52 PM
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Botch,
Good point! I like it when people think.

I like your idea about 'spare capacity', and the one on shock resistance. I also like the concept of increased brain quantity for increased sense capability, even if the dwarf sort of short changes that one.
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Botch
post Nov 24 2004, 06:54 PM
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Larger bodies need larger brains, 9kgs for a sperm whale and what is its body mass?


The shape of Neanderthal skulls indicate that their sensory development was much, much better than sapiens, whilst their language centres was much smaller. This shift in functioning is significant. Physically they were are superiors, but just how much innovation do you think you can have if you have little means to communication abstract thoughts? During the same time periods and maturity as a species we have shown very little difference in our tools making. Also we nicked their basic technology and improved on it, just like they got religion before we did.
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KarmaInferno
post Nov 24 2004, 06:54 PM
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Found that info on Einstein's brain.

It wasn't any bigger than anyone else's, but certain structures within the brain were different.

Remember that also a large percentage of your brain is fat. The glial cells that the neurons are surrounded and interwoven by are largely just fatty cushions. So larger does not necessarily equal more neural matter - you might just be more of a fathead.

:)


-karma
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Botch
post Nov 24 2004, 06:54 PM
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QUOTE (GrinderTheTroll)
Two words:

GAME BALANCE.

QUOTE
After researching cranial capacity to straightforward intelligence measurements, there appears to be an issue; why aren't trolls the most intelligent meta-humans (Yes, I do know about game balance and I have since D&D 1st Ed was SOTA, so don't mention it, okay.)?
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Kagetenshi
post Nov 24 2004, 06:56 PM
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With regard to whales and monster truck rallies, I think the following quote is most appropriate:

"Humans think they are smarter than dolphins because we build cars and buildings and start wars...all dolphins do is swim in the water, eat fish and play. Dolphins believe that they are smarter for exactly the same reasons."

~J
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Botch
post Nov 24 2004, 06:56 PM
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QUOTE (KarmaInferno)
Found that info on Einstein's brain.

It wasn't any bigger than anyone else's, but certain structures within the brain were different.

Remember that also a large percentage of you brain is fat. The glial cells that the neurons are surrounded and interwoven by are largely just fatty cushions. So larger does not necessarily equal more neural matter - you might just be more of a fathead.

:)


-karma

Yes, that is why I included such options that have nothing to do with straight-line IQ quota. You are starting to think along the right lines.
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Cray74
post Nov 24 2004, 06:56 PM
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QUOTE (Botch)
The shape of Neanderthal skulls indicate that their sensory development was much, much better than sapiens, whilst their language centres was much smaller.

So noted. However, I modified my last post with additional information on human brains.

Within humans, there is no noticeable correlation between brain size and intelligence (in healthy humans), and the human brain varies in mass by more than a factor of 2.
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Botch
post Nov 24 2004, 07:00 PM
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QUOTE (Kagetenshi)
With regard to whales and monster truck rallies, I think the following quote is most appropriate:

"Humans think they are smarter than dolphins because we build cars and buildings and start wars...all dolphins do is swim in the water, eat fish and play. Dolphins believe that they are smarter for exactly the same reasons."

~J

Nice Adams-ish quote. But I am comparing a human with a creature that is so genecticaly similar that they can breed with humans.
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Botch
post Nov 24 2004, 07:04 PM
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QUOTE (Cray74)
Within humans, there is no noticeable correlation between brain size and intelligence (in healthy humans), and the human brain varies in mass by more than a factor of 2.

Yes, but we are dealing with a brain that is bigger by a much larger factor than 2 yet appears to be functioning at 70% effect. There IS an inference and association between brain size and capabilites, just not a direct link, subtle but non-the-less important difference.
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Cray74
post Nov 24 2004, 07:04 PM
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"The average for the adult male European is about 1375 gm whereas the brain of Turgenev, the Russian novelist, weighed 2021 gm. It was exceeded by that of only two others so far recorded: one was an imbecile. Then there is the record of a laborer whose brain weighed 1925 gm. and a bricklayer, 1900 gm. The brain weight of Gambetta, the famous French statesman, was only 1294 gm, or less than the average European. A woman's brain is slightly smaller than man's, and the largest woman's brain recorded was 1742 gm - she was insane. Another woman's brain of large size weighed 1580 gm, and she also was insane. It is some evidence of the unimportance of brain size that the brain of Anatole France weighed only 1017 gm while the brain of Bismark weighed 1807 gm."
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Austere Emancipa...
post Nov 24 2004, 07:05 PM
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As much as I generally hate the "Because it's magic" argument, I'm going to use it here. Trolls, in most fantasy worlds where they exist, did not evolve into the forms they are. They just popped into that shape because of some manifestation of magic.

Because magic works in mysterious ways, it's perfectly possible that, in order to retain similar features/proportions to humans -- to make it easier to identify with them, to make them look nicer, to make the artists' jobs easier in RL terms or whatever BS reasons the magical powers that created them have in terms of the RPG world -- their brains were just filled with nonfunctional grey matter, or "back-up" brain capacity, or whatever the heck else.

I suppose if I had to make the choice, e.g. if the PCs were involved in some scientific research where the brains of metahumans were thoroughly investigated, I'd use a composite of at least reasons A, B, G and H, and possibly F and I and other odder ones as necessary. Combined with what Cray74 and others are saying about the non-relation between brain size and (any form of) intelligence in humans, that would be enough for me.
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Botch
post Nov 24 2004, 07:07 PM
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Cray74, sorry which previous Homo was it that was 6+ feet tall and a reduced cranial capacity? I thought it was Erectus, but obviously I named the wrong species.

As an aside, wild creatures have larger brains than domesticated ones, this includes us.
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Toxic_Waste
post Nov 24 2004, 07:10 PM
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QUOTE (Botch @ Nov 24 2004, 01:44 PM)
Does anybody have constructive critism or even helpful comments or is it another "burn the witch" thread.

Helpful comment? what's that? :P

Homo sapiens did indeed race past its more stupider cousins. Why?

The genes, I suppose. The same way that elves are smarter, trolls are dumber. It's in the genes. Even if mana levels trigger the transformation, they don't alter the basic genetic information that's stored in there.

Assuming that we can compare humans/metahumans to apes, some ape species have a higher IQ and some have a lower one, as well as vastly different physical caracteristics.
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Botch
post Nov 24 2004, 07:12 PM
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QUOTE (Cray74 @ Nov 24 2004, 08:04 PM)
"The average for the adult male European is about 1375 gm whereas the brain of Turgenev, the Russian novelist, weighed 2021 gm. It was exceeded by that of only two others so far recorded: one was an imbecile. Then there is the record of a laborer whose brain weighed 1925 gm. and a bricklayer, 1900 gm. The brain weight of Gambetta, the famous French statesman, was only 1294 gm, or less than the average European. A woman's brain is slightly smaller than man's, and the largest woman's brain recorded was 1742 gm - she was insane. Another woman's brain of large size weighed 1580 gm, and she also was insane. It is some evidence of the unimportance of brain size that the brain of Anatole France weighed only 1017 gm while the brain of Bismark weighed 1807 gm."

Another way of looking at your figures is that the human brain appears to vary by around 1,000gm, with a base weight of 1,000gm.

This could give a troll with a base weight of 1,000gm plus another few kilos in excess of a human.

Given a rough calc a troll would have what 1.5kgx2x2x2 = 24kgs, obviously not the case, so what has happened to all that extra volume in the skull.

This post has been edited by Botch: Nov 24 2004, 07:16 PM
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Kagetenshi
post Nov 24 2004, 07:13 PM
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QUOTE (Botch)
QUOTE (Kagetenshi @ Nov 24 2004, 07:56 PM)
With regard to whales and monster truck rallies, I think the following quote is most appropriate:

"Humans think they are smarter than dolphins because we build cars and buildings and start wars...all dolphins do is swim in the water, eat fish and play. Dolphins believe that they are smarter for exactly the same reasons."

~J

Nice Adams-ish quote. But I am comparing a human with a creature that is so genecticaly similar that they can breed with humans.

This was a response to Cray's now-vanished mention of whales not participating in higher-order intelligence activities like organizing monster truck rallies. Both original comment and response were tongue-in-cheek.

Personally, I'd just say that for whatever reason the Troll brain has less surface area for reactions to occur. Smooth-brained Trolls?

~J
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Cray74
post Nov 24 2004, 07:16 PM
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QUOTE (Botch)
Yes, but we are dealing with a brain that is bigger by a much larger factor than 2 yet appears to be functioning at 70% effect. 

Total troll brain volume isn't necessarily over twice the human norm. Their heads certainly appear large, but that doesn't necessarily translate into big brains.

QUOTE
There IS an inference and association between brain size and capabilites, just not a direct link, subtle but non-the-less important difference.


Right. However, there's also evidence that brain size differences can also have negligible affect on intelligence (especially within breeds of species), and therefore it is also plausible - rather than outright dismissable - that trolls r stoopid.

Further, ability to interbreed does not prohibit surprising structural differences in the brain. A single bad gene could turn Einstein into a true moron, even while retaining the same brain mass. The few genes that differentiate trolls from humans can leave trolls with a lot of idled or underemployed brain cells.

QUOTE
Cray74, sorry which previous Homo was it that was 6+ feet tall and a reduced cranial capacity? I thought it was Erectus, but obviously I named the wrong species.


I don't know. AFAIK, only neanderthals were larger than modern humans. There's a few other large primates with small brains (e.g., gorillas), but that's outside the homo genus, I think.
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Cray74
post Nov 24 2004, 07:17 PM
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QUOTE
Given a rough calc a troll would have what 1.5kgx2x2x2 = 24kgs, obviously not the case, so what has happened to all that extra volume in the skull.


It's filled with scraps of paper reading, "artistic license"? :grinbig:
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Nikoli
post Nov 24 2004, 07:18 PM
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Also, Troll craniums have to content with the horns. This would require a more advanced musculature surrounding the ckull, a thicker skull to support the muscle tissue and then the internal padding, similair to any horned mammal around the brain.
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