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> Rigger Soul-searching, Can we do without them?
Trashman
post Nov 29 2004, 01:19 PM
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It came up during the latest post-run discussions of my group:

Does one need a rigger or is it enough just to have someone who can drive like a madman?
To elaborate. Riggers in planes and helicopters are (almost) a reality in our dear quaint old fifth world. Granted. Seems reasonable viz. the microseconds you have in jets to decide whether to release the rocket or do the pacifist bit.
Now, riggers on streets are an entirely different kettle of fish. Depending on style of play, your group might not be exclusively stuck in urban free fire zones where a rigger might have to handle street code, on-board HMGs and that nifty SAM on top all at the same time. At least, I goad my group towards something one might call low-tech (hey, they're from the Barrens, they think spurs are SOTA). So my feeling is riggers basically come into their own mainly as getaway-drivers. They have to know their way around town, they have to be socially adaptively insane and they need to talk about their cars like that sad git in Full Metal Jacket did about his rifle 'Charlene'. The need for VCR never comes into it.
So you have sensors for that 360 degrees vista. Fine. And is there any space left for the runners?
So you (I quote one of the latest novels) can feel the rain on your hood. What's the use for that?
So your body movements are translated into car movements (Rigger III). Fat chance. Never known anybody who was better on all fours than on two legs.
I could go on.
There's obviously a reason for having riggers the way they are in SR. Samurai are Samurai. Nerds have become ultra-cool deckers, Magic-users are superhuman anyway. And then only include some poor slot who sits behind the wheel? Of course nobody wants to play that type.

What are your feelings?
(And don't burn me for the above. I'm putting this forward BECAUSE I want to be able to review my ideas about riggers)
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Cray74
post Nov 29 2004, 02:23 PM
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I'm not sure what to say.

Very rarely do I play in a group with all the standard "classes" filled out. Riggers and deckers tend to be the "classes" most often absent, at least in terms of having some strut around claiming to be a "decker" or "rigger," but there's other gaps in the team roster. It looks my dorf (below) will soon be in a group with a physad and a trog samurai, but nothing else.

On the other hand, the PCs are usually bizarre hybrids (when you approach things from an archetype point of view) and fill in the weak spots by having secondary skills. For example, my dorf "decker," a gruff Charisma 2 dorf stereotype, is the "face" of the group with 9 starting contacts, etiquette, negotiation, and good reputation 2. In another campaign, my street samurai-merc-tank-thing is the team's decker and electronics specialist. Naturally, they both stink at their secondary skills compared to one of the archetypes in SR3, but compared to the other PCs, they're highly trained specialists. (The number of PCs who cant drive a car or pick a maglock is astounding...)

So, I don't know that any given archetype/class is needed to fill out a running team. Certainly having a rigger or decker is useful at times, but other times, the group just avoids the runs where they're critical (or subcontracts an NPC).
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Kagetenshi
post Nov 29 2004, 02:45 PM
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QUOTE (Trashman @ Nov 29 2004, 08:19 AM)
There's obviously a reason for having riggers the way they are in SR. Samurai are Samurai. Nerds have become ultra-cool deckers, Magic-users are superhuman anyway. And then only include some poor slot who sits behind the wheel? Of course nobody wants to play that type.

What are your feelings?

Burn.

The VCR is highly needed. If you never knew someone who did better on four legs than two, you never met a Rigger. They're up there with Deckers for surveillance, they outclass Streetsams for raw combat ability by orders of magnitude, and they have as good a chance at fighting off a mage as any Mundane (more, if you count the ability to detect said mage from kilometers away, if you can identify him).

They've got their limitations, certainly, but Riggers are a type that, in terms of growth, are limited only by cash. If anything, they're overpowered.

~J
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toturi
post Nov 29 2004, 03:17 PM
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Riggers are the runner artillery. They may not be real good up close and personal but they sure can wax your ass from real far away.
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Kagetenshi
post Nov 29 2004, 03:28 PM
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-3 to TN to hit with SEG for LOS. Better bonus than Smartlink with more dice and fewer negative mods.

~J
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CoalHeart
post Nov 29 2004, 03:31 PM
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Up close and personal, I've seen riggers tear Sams up on the battle field.

Behold the Monowire buzzaw VTOL minidrone.

It was horrible, too frightening to consider. Did damage to everything below it within 2 meters. Counterweights on the bottoms of the wires, combined with centrifugal force kept the strings taut. Plus it also had a retraction and wire cutting system to shorten the wires or cut them to prevent snagging on very durable material.
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toturi
post Nov 29 2004, 03:39 PM
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Actually, there are no Canon rules for such a vehicular weapon system. You could house rule it so that it is powerful, but you could also house rule such that it isn't.
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Tarantula
post Nov 29 2004, 04:09 PM
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Behold the steel lynx with some EnfieldAS-7/D shotguns. (I think thats the mod for the 50rnd drum, right?)
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Trashman
post Nov 29 2004, 04:45 PM
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Yes, well, how to put it to you gentlemen (and -women and -others)?...

I was thinking in terms of roleplaying and consistency of background. I don't think looking at the rules (and their omissions!) gives any REASON for having a character type dubbed rigger on its very own. I'd rather agree with Cray74 in that it appears more feasible to mix types and not adhere to gospel. At least, that's the way with our 'rigger' who has no VCR or whatsit, is a former merc and can simply drive quite well.

Having some geek sitting back for hours on end doing and saying nothing until he can recite a list of uberdeath drone business is not my idea of roleplaying. That's why I was asking. The gizmos are fine by themselves (I'd be the first one to admit that - and build an episode specifically for their use) but they don't do anything for roleplaying.
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Cray74
post Nov 29 2004, 04:46 PM
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QUOTE (Tarantula)
Behold the steel lynx with some EnfieldAS-7/D shotguns. (I think thats the mod for the 50rnd drum, right?)

If you can get away with milgrade drones and vehicle-mounted weaponry, go for it.
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Cray74
post Nov 29 2004, 04:56 PM
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QUOTE (Trashman)
I'd rather agree with Cray74 in that it appears more feasible to mix types and not adhere to gospel. At least, that's the way with our 'rigger' who has no VCR or whatsit, is a former merc and can simply drive quite well.

If you just need a chaffeur/getaway rigger, consider a robotic pilot (rating 3-4) with some of the pilot upgrades in Rigger 3, like fuzzy logic and neural network upgrades. (Plus assorted concealment abilities, including alternate license plates and color changing paint jobs). My merc's sedan is often the smartest member of the team. The dice it can throw at spotting threats or just driving makes the rest of the team seem like morons and 80-year old grannies behind the wheel. You can depend on it to carry out complicated instructions and receive updates by phone.

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jezryaldar
post Nov 29 2004, 05:01 PM
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QUOTE
I was thinking in terms of roleplaying and consistency of background. I don't think looking at the rules (and their omissions!) gives any REASON for having a character type dubbed rigger on its very own. I'd rather agree with Cray74 in that it appears more feasible to mix types and not adhere to gospel. At least, that's the way with our 'rigger' who has no VCR or whatsit, is a former merc and can simply drive quite well.


I personally believe this comes down to how you create the background of the character and how that works into the system. I think you could say the same thing for any character type. It is all up to the player, and the background.

As a side note, I was re reading the Matrix suppliment. I think the same principle applies to riggers as to the matrix. You could get by without it, but deckers (riggers) are kings of the matrix (freeways)....

It is whatever fits best to your group and your style of GM'ing. :spin:
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Tarantula
post Nov 29 2004, 05:37 PM
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QUOTE (Trashman)
I was thinking in terms of roleplaying and consistency of background. I don't think looking at the rules (and their omissions!) gives any REASON for having a character type dubbed rigger on its very own. I'd rather agree with Cray74 in that it appears more feasible to mix types and not adhere to gospel. At least, that's the way with our 'rigger' who has no VCR or whatsit, is a former merc and can simply drive quite well.

Go through and compare someone "who can drive quite well" against a rigger with a VCR. Look at how much better the rigger is.
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Toxic_Waste
post Nov 29 2004, 05:43 PM
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You should always have the best possible getaway driver. Which isn't to say he has to be a PC. Adding other qualities, like being a face or having some magic/combat abilities, would ensure the rigger actually has a life beyond driving fast when people are shooting up the car.
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Ol' Scratch
post Nov 29 2004, 06:07 PM
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I really hate VCRs.

I just hate everything about them. They lack style. It just turns you a comatose guy slumped in the driver's seat. Beyond that, it completely undermines a mundane's ability to drive well -- despite the fact that there are *plenty* of experienced drivers today that can do some amazing things behind a wheel. But nope, with the advent of a VCR, only riggers who have one installed can perform the really amazing maneuvers. Without a Control Pool, you can't even think about performing a dodge maneuver, for instance. Nope, you have to have a vehicle specially modified with a rigger black box and someone with a 2-5 Essence implant installed to do anything like that.

And even if you have reflexes augmented to the moon, you're still only going to get one action -- maybe two actions if you're really lucky and have a high natural Reaction score -- per initiative while piloting a vehicle.

I love the concept of a rigger -- someone who has the talent and the hardware to be a superior driver. I hate the execution, because as it stands, they're the *only ones* who can be even a good driver. At best a regular wheelman can get you around town and maybe run over a few innocent bystandards.... but as soon as a rigger shows up, you might as not even bother trying to escape since you have no shot at succeeding, even if you have a Cars skill in the teens.

It would be so easy to make it more sane and playable, too, while maintaining the rigger's superiority over all things vehicular.

All you would need to do is give everyone a Control Pool (equal to their Reaction, just like normal) and allow everyone to use their normal Initiative while driving. Datajacks would still grant a -1 TN and +1 Reaction while used. This actually makes it worth investing in a vehicular skill.

Then, you modify the rules for a VCR so that they only grant a -1 TN bonus per level and a +1 (or maybe even +2) bonus to Control Pool and Reaction for purposes of piloting only. Reduce their costs and Essence requirements dramatically (since they'll still need to buy initiative enhancers if they want to be a bad-ass pilot), and voila... riggers will still dominate the scene, but they won't be the only ones who can work wonders behind the wheel.

But... as it stands... I really hate VCRs.
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Jason Farlander
post Nov 29 2004, 06:16 PM
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QUOTE (Doctor Funkenstein)
I really hate VCRs.

Well then you'll probably be happy to hear that they're starting to be phased out by electronics retailers.
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Cray74
post Nov 29 2004, 06:16 PM
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QUOTE (Doctor Funkenstein @ Nov 29 2004, 06:07 PM)
Nope, you have to have a vehicle specially modified with a rigger black box and someone with a 2-5 Essence implant installed to do anything like that.

As I recall pricing (I don't look at control rigs often), a beta grade VCR 1, while not common, is still pretty cheap (48000 nuyen, IIRC) and "only" 1.2 essence.

Other points taken, though.
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Crusher Bob
post Nov 29 2004, 06:25 PM
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Hmm, if your dikoted ally spirit is in vehicle form and you are riding it and using the sense link power, do you get a control pool? :love:

The other problem I have with riggers is that the abilities tend to be either overpowering or useless, depending on the situation:

---
Passenger: Crap! the cops are chasing us, what do we do?

Rigger: don't worry, our rigger bycycle will trun circles around them
---

Runner: Well it's off to the pub for a few pints, everyone into the riggermobile.

Rigger: Bolloks

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Kagetenshi
post Nov 29 2004, 06:26 PM
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QUOTE (Trashman)
Having some geek sitting back for hours on end doing and saying nothing until he can recite a list of uberdeath drone business is not my idea of roleplaying. That's why I was asking. The gizmos are fine by themselves (I'd be the first one to admit that - and build an episode specifically for their use) but they don't do anything for roleplaying.

Having someone sit on the team and sleep until he can step to the front of the team and waste a security guard battalion isn't my idea of roleplaying either. You can create straw riggers all you want, but there is a lot more that a good Rigger can be doing. Surveillance, small drones, larger drones going in as part of the team, coordination… the possibilities are vast.

~J
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lodestar
post Nov 29 2004, 08:01 PM
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Ok here we go in defence of the poor rigger.

First lets look at where most riggers would come form in the 6th world. A good portion of them are going to be exmilitary men - helo pilots, naval riggers, fixed wing pilots etc. The second class they'll be from will be heavy industry -truck drivers, mine operators, construction equipment operators, etc and the third being civil aviation be it corp or private. Most SSTs and Semi-ballistics will have riggers running them simply because in all of these cases having mind and machhine acting as one makes for efficiency, safety, and in the case of the military, combat effectiveness.

These backgrounds give the rigger a very diverse set of contacts, some might be very well travelled compared to your street mage or typical ganger. Need a contact in Denver? chances are your rigger will know someone or at least know a friend of a friend. It also means a rigger will probably have contacts in both legal and illegal aquiring of items especially rare and specific ones - Anything from gun runners, to knowing when the stuffershack gets its shipments of amber-gel. Smugglers love to have a rigger on their payroll. If the only contact your rigger has is his mechanic, then you're poorly underusing him. Since a rigger usually spends most on his high starting resources it gives him a ton to spend on contacts. DMV employees, border guards, mil spec contacts all are far more reasonable for a rigger than a street sam. What this amounts to is there should be plenty of role playing material behind any rigger especially when it comes to any leg work.

Secondly lets look at the heart of the rigger the VCR. Does the VCR give someone that much advantage over a really good driver? Not when it comes to regular driving. In fact when it comes to motorcycles, a good biker with amped up reflexes and bike skill will leave a similarly equipped rigger in the dust. The main advantage to the VCR is it lets a rigger "jumped in" take full advantage of all a vehicle's goodies especially if the vehicle has a good sensor package - few other runners will have the advantages of thermographic, low light, image magnification, sound magnification, radar, sonar and ultrasound all the time. Plus, with a few Mps the rigger can choose to record all of these when he pleases as well. Very useful if you need to blackmail someone later.

Thirdly most teams underuse the rigger's other ability: Command and Control. When a team is operating the rigger is usually in his get-away/command vehicle. If you're rigger is just sitting on his hands waiting for the team to get out with the loot then he's not earning his pay. Assuming your team has some way to communicate with each other the rigger should be monitoring it as well as any other important com channels, say I dunno maybe the Lonestar one? Using the vehicle as your comm center provides plenty of advantages. It can increase its flux to increase comm range, use its ECM and ECCM abilities to jam enemy and keep clear friendly ones, maybe even give the bad guys a wild goose to chase. Now add the riggers drones into the equation (and oddly enough I haven't heard much mention of drones above) now the team has eyes everywhere. Every exit can be covered, every team member can have overwatch. Remember a drone can safely be sitting off just within visual range of its magnified senses so the rigger can warn the team when the heat is on its way. Someone getting away? I don't know too many metahumans that can out run a rotodrone - which I might add can follow at a safe distance so the suspect might not even know they're followed. Now since our rigger is in charge of this entire network ideally he should be the one who's in charge of the team's tactical planning. He's the only one who probably knows where everyone is at any given time, your eye in the sky and he never blinks.

If you're having no fun playing a rigger, you just aren't being creative enough.
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Ol' Scratch
post Nov 29 2004, 08:09 PM
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QUOTE
Secondly lets look at the heart of the rigger the VCR. Does the VCR give someone that much advantage over a really good driver?

Yes, it does. Even over standard driving maneuvers (such as escaping pursuit). Control Pool, Reaction, Initiative, and a target number modifier are all drastic improvements.
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Kagetenshi
post Nov 29 2004, 08:31 PM
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Just to second what the Doc said, Control Pool, Reaction, Initiative, and a Target Number modifier are all drastic improvements. Any one individually would give a decent improvement, especially the pool and TN mod. All together and I have no idea where you're getting the idea that an unrigged biker can hope to keep up.

~J
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Eyeless Blond
post Nov 29 2004, 08:40 PM
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What really bothers me about riggers is how much the driving rules seem to artificially cater to them over everyone else. Init boosters like wired reflexes give you a boost to physical Reaction and Initiative... except for the moment you grasp a steering wheel, unless you're a rigger. Combat Pool helps you aim weaponry and allows you a dodge test when the bullets are flying at you... except the moment you grasp a steering wheel, unless you're a rigger and get a "Control Pool" which does the same thing. Similarly, the VCR takes up a huge amount of Essence and cash, but give you a host of benefits which entirely disappear when not behind the wheel. It seems to me that the vehicle rules intend on pigeonholing riggers--people with VCRs--into that little vehicle box, and pigeonholing everyone else out, and the more I look at it the more it smacks of D&D-esque character class system.

I guess what I'm saying is I agree with Funk. Make a VCR 1 cost .4 Essence and 12,000 :nuyen: , the VCR 2 cost 1.0 Essence and 40,000 :nuyen: , and the VCR 3 cost 2.0 Essence and 150,000 :nuyen: . Remove VCR initiative boosts, but allow physical boosts to init to work in vehicles while driving, and allow everyone to have their own Control Pool equal to their Reaction. This way it's not completely stupid to have a vehicle skill and not have a VCR, but rigger characters are still worthwhile.
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Kagetenshi
post Nov 29 2004, 08:47 PM
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That's not entirely true, you can use combat pool for vehicle-weapon attacks. Of course, this means that Riggers are even more sick. My decently optimized Rigger has a total of twenty-three pool dice to throw around in combat. Sure, ten of those can only be used for attack tests, but that's about as many as other archetypes get in pool period.

I have to disagree with you, Eyeless, on the changes there. There's no reason why physical initiative improvements should help while rigged. The better change would be to allow said improvements, or some lesser version of said improvements, while driving physically.

~J
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Lindt
post Nov 29 2004, 08:48 PM
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Im thinking there is a misconception here. If you have W3, you still drive a car with the controls as W3. What you loose over a rigger with a VCR is 1) reduction to TN's, 2) control pool, 3) acess onboard equipment (sensors, guns, ect).

Now, If Im wrong, I feel as thats what the problem is.
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