 Rigger Soul-searching, Can we do without them? |
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 Nov 30 2004, 05:28 PM
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#101
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Moving Target  Group: Members Posts: 424 Joined: 11-May 02 From: Marauding the mighty North Saskatchewan Member No.: 2,720  |
That's not what the R3 customization rules say. Unless it was changed with R3revised. |
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Nov 30 2004, 05:31 PM
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#102
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Immortal Elf Group: Validating Posts: 7,999 Joined: 26-February 02 Member No.: 1,890 |
Because it's likely an oversight. |
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Nov 30 2004, 05:43 PM
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#103
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Manus Celer Dei Group: Dumpshocked Posts: 17,013 Joined: 30-December 02 From: Boston Member No.: 3,802 |
So it's broken in almost all situations as opposed to all. A marginal improvement, but your point is made.
Interesting. I'll have to check on that when I get home. ~J |
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Nov 30 2004, 06:36 PM
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#104
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Running Target Group: Members Posts: 1,028 Joined: 9-November 02 From: The Republic of Vermont Member No.: 3,581 |
Uh, no. Reducing the number of Body dice a vehicle has to throw increases breakage. Instead of merely being unable to stage down extremely high-power attacks because the TNs are so high, it's unable to stage down any attacks because it just doesn't have enough dice at any TN. The treatment of vehicle armor is what helps them against extremely high-power attacks. It takes massive damage levels to be able to hurt them at all, and the reduction of power and damage level makes it easier for them to stage damage down. The problem is that the combination of those two effects results in a weird discontinuity where shooting a vehicle with increasingly high-power weapons will result in shots pinging off it harmlessly without even requiring a resistance roll, until you add one more point of Power and the vehicle explodes in a massive fireball, because it doesn't have enough dice to soak any damage that can hurt it at all. |
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Nov 30 2004, 06:56 PM
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#105
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Decker on the Threshold Group: Dumpshocked Posts: 2,922 Joined: 14-March 04 Member No.: 6,156 |
SR3, page 140, right column, third through fifth paragraph. |
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Nov 30 2004, 08:44 PM
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#106
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Shooting Target Group: Members Posts: 1,512 Joined: 16-August 03 From: Northampton Member No.: 5,499 |
Not a great deal, Humans had a BTM which represented how "tough" someone was Borgs didn't. If a handgun did 15 damage it did that to everything, Tank, Borg, ACPA, 6 year old kid (Before armour ofcause). The stupid things is (if i remember correctly) was that some Borgs had like upto 50 SDP per limb! taking 50 damage after armour would put most people in Mortal 8-9 and destroy all bikes and most cars. So your can't really use CP2020 compare. |
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Dec 1 2004, 07:35 AM
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#107
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Moving Target Group: Members Posts: 190 Joined: 24-October 04 Member No.: 6,787 |
The rigger is the easiest PC class to do without in the group. Depending on the group (And the GM's payscale) the rigger can replace Sammys though.
I've never had it happen, but I suspect going up against a million Y Rigger is a lot scarier than facing a million Y Chromejob. At least you have some idea where the guy is atacking you from, and he can't fight you again if you fill him with enough metal. |
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Dec 1 2004, 08:25 AM
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#108
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Immortal Elf Group: Validating Posts: 7,999 Joined: 26-February 02 Member No.: 1,890 |
In my experience, deckers are the easiest ones to do without. If you need some matrix work done, just call a contact and wait. Riggers, however, are masters of surveillance and reconnaissance, and failing that they get to pull ut the biggest guns of anyone in the game. They're definitely worth having on a run. Necessary? No. But more useful in more situations than a traditional decker is.
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Dec 1 2004, 09:56 AM
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#109
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Running Target Group: Members Posts: 1,133 Joined: 3-October 04 Member No.: 6,722 |
Whilst I agree that deckers in person are easy to do without, and in fact we generally do, I do understand what the OP is getting at.
Remove magic, and it's not Shadowrun any more. Remove the Matrix, and it's not Shadowrun any more. Remove rigging, and I honestly think hardly anybody will notice - or even care. Having a decker contact do the matrix legwork for you is one thing, and it's something that 8 out of 10 groups I've played with do. But the Matrix is still there and still important. Rigging, on the other hand, rarely if ever raises its head unless there's a rigger actually in the party. Perhaps the most damning point from where I'm sitting is this: in all the years I've played Shadowrun, I've only seen maybe half a dozen PC deckers. But I have only seen one PC rigger, and that was in the very last game I reffed; and that was only because it was a one-off and the player was looking for something completely different to do. |
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Dec 1 2004, 03:17 PM
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#110
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Karma Police Group: Dumpshocked Posts: 1,358 Joined: 22-July 04 From: Gothenburg, SE Member No.: 6,505 |
I donīt know if your wrong or not. But I think you should be right. Rigging is fine, just let the sams use their improved initiative when driving. We donīt want to blend riggers and samurai so that every sam is a rigger and the other way around. Which is what would happen if riggers automaticly got a general boost to initiative and sams only had to buy some really cheap extra cyber to be a rigger too. That would really screw with game ballance. And I agree with many of the previous posters, riggers are extremely usefull and there are just as good roleplaying opportunities as with any other character. My only problem with them is the "to the riggermobile, weīre going for a pint. Oh schush" problem. Riggers need more illigal equipment than any other character. How do you solve that?
<<<edit>>> oops. Missed a few pages. My post is regarding a discussion on the first and second page. |
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Dec 1 2004, 03:19 PM
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#111
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Canon Companion Group: Members Posts: 8,021 Joined: 2-March 03 From: The Morgue, Singapore LTG Member No.: 4,187 |
Connected. Both to buy and to sell. |
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Dec 1 2004, 03:23 PM
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#112
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Karma Police Group: Dumpshocked Posts: 1,358 Joined: 22-July 04 From: Gothenburg, SE Member No.: 6,505 |
Yea. But I meen when itīs crusial to keep a low profile. Riggers tend to be very powerful in the countryside and the barrens, but they have a hard time doing any good in downtown areas.
I guess it ballances out if I do my job as a GM. |
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Dec 1 2004, 03:27 PM
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#113
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Dragon Group: Members Posts: 4,664 Joined: 21-September 04 From: Arvada, CO Member No.: 6,686 |
Low profile? Transponder libraries, shifting plates, photovoltaic paint (the color changing stuff if I mis-remembered the name), concealed armor, pop-out turrets, highjacking cars, drones, blimps, small drones that come out of the back of a van, overwatch (not illegal to own plane drones, upgrade their sensors and you're Mr. Spotter from the group, even well above the city heights (where planes should be flying anyway. You can even just have the car appear to be moving via GridGuide (to other cars around it) with a rigger actually controlling it. Hacking gridguide to override its knowledge of your car. You could go the purchase cars legally and mods through the shadows and mod your legal cars. |
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Dec 1 2004, 03:40 PM
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#114
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Karma Police Group: Dumpshocked Posts: 1,358 Joined: 22-July 04 From: Gothenburg, SE Member No.: 6,505 |
Yes this is possible. So you can make a low profile rigger just as you can make a low profile samurai. But at least if youīre starting from scrach it might be hard to afford both a low profile vehicle and one with lots of guns. And all the consealment in the world wouldnīt hide the fact that a Citymaster stands out in some situations. As a GM I must admit that having a rigger for the first time on a team uped the stakes. It lets the team use much more high-tech methods. And it also increases the complexity of every run. Thereīs more money involved, and more angles to cover. Both for the GM and the players.
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Dec 1 2004, 03:47 PM
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#115
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Dragon Group: Members Posts: 4,664 Joined: 21-September 04 From: Arvada, CO Member No.: 6,686 |
Actually, you can have a low profile vehicle with lots of guns. Pop-up turrets aren't too hard to come by, they just eat up cargo space. Also, considering that the majority of starting vehicles aren't too terribly obvious (minus things such as the Kodiak) its rather easy to make a nice, custom combat job to go along with your nearly-stock bison with plates, paint, and a library and possible a nitro just-in-case. Oh, also, you can make a very concealed car or van, add drone racks, break-downable drones, and build them up while the rest of the team gets their gear ready, have the smaller and more stealthy drones be your muscle (and most of them can fit into buildings!) and have your getaway vehicle be the more stealthy hard to spot/find again style. |
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Dec 1 2004, 04:25 PM
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#116
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Karma Police Group: Dumpshocked Posts: 1,358 Joined: 22-July 04 From: Gothenburg, SE Member No.: 6,505 |
I guess your right
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Dec 1 2004, 05:39 PM
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#117
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Moving Target Group: Members Posts: 424 Joined: 11-May 02 From: Marauding the mighty North Saskatchewan Member No.: 2,720 |
The rigger's best friend in this case is a Shaman or mage - both of which can almost compete with the rigger for doing vehicle stunts. But combine them and you get a fairly unstoppable combo. I mean what better anti missle system than an air elemental on standby? Not to mention the movement powers of some elementals and nature spirits. Need to mak a clean getaway? Summon a city spirit to give you that extra bursts of speed or use its accident or concealment powers. And as good as ruthenium polymers are, nothing beats an invisibility spell for stealth.
In most of my games as well its usually the rigger who gets to monitor the mage/shaman who's out and about astrally as he's strapped into the seat beside him. Put a biomonitor on him which ties into the vehicle you're rigging and if the mage gets in trouble astrally, you give him a punch to the jaw and bring him back to his body. |
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Dec 1 2004, 07:28 PM
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#118
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Decker on the Threshold Group: Dumpshocked Posts: 2,922 Joined: 14-March 04 Member No.: 6,156 |
Um, why, exactly? The thing is, I've never thought the VCR itself should be the main barrier to entry for being a rigger. Or, rather, I believe there should be some measurable step between the vehicle gods and the rest of the world, who are as comparably good behind the wheel as a mundane is in astral space. Nothing else in Shadowrun is as binary as those who can drive and those who can't; with aspected mages, adepts and dual-natured people even the line between Awakened and non-Awakened is more blurred than that between vehicle god and can't drive. The fact that the rigger is so much better at driving than any other character can ever be leads to the exact situations that you describe later. Because of this obvious difference noone else is stupid enough to even *try* to drive a car, so everyone just forces the rigger to drive everywhere. This is the crux of the problem with riggers, as I see iit, and something that needs to be changed so fewer runner team end up traveling in one big riggervan all the time like the Scooby gang. :P |
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Dec 1 2004, 07:49 PM
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#119
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Traumatizing players since 1992 Group: Dumpshocked Posts: 3,282 Joined: 26-February 02 From: Las Vegas, NV Member No.: 220 |
As a note, the TN to see a pop up turret when it's hidden is a 6. that means half of the average pedestrians that look at the car will see something odd about it. Those aren't good odds. That's not very hidden. Same for vehicle armor, though its a good deal more ceoncealable depending on how much you have.
While I'm at it, a drone's ability to operate in urban environments is pretty lousy after all the sensor TN penalties. EDIT: and as a note, I give everyone control pool equal to their natural reaction. Theres no freaking reason that a pro race driver can't swerve a car to avoid gunfire. :P |
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Dec 1 2004, 08:05 PM
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#120
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Manus Celer Dei Group: Dumpshocked Posts: 17,013 Joined: 30-December 02 From: Boston Member No.: 3,802 |
For vans, a top-mounted pop-up turret can be quite concealable. How many pedestrians look at the top of the van? :P
~J |
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Dec 1 2004, 08:15 PM
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#121
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Running Target Group: Members Posts: 1,028 Joined: 9-November 02 From: The Republic of Vermont Member No.: 3,581 |
What percentage of the population are trolls? |
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Dec 1 2004, 08:23 PM
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#122
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Immortal Elf Group: Validating Posts: 7,999 Joined: 26-February 02 Member No.: 1,890 |
Keep in mind that a single success against Concealability doesn't mean you'll be interupted. It's the Legality code that determines whether or not you're going to get harrassed about it... and as far as I know, Pop-Up Turrets don't have a tremendously horrible Legality Code. Fixed mounts and normal turrets only have a code of 3P-V, and Pintle Mounts have a Legal code.
So, basically, they have to spot the Pop-Up Turrent, then make a Police/Security Procedures Test with at least 2 or more successes in order to begin hassling you about it. A single success against the Legality Code only means that they've figured out what it is. If you have a permit, the most they'll do is ask you to see it and maybe hassle you a little. For normal pedestrians, that means two Intelligence Tests, one with a TN of 6, the other with a TN of 7 and the requirement of 2 or more successes to do anything about it. Armor, on the other hand, is completely legal. Doesn't matter if they notice it or not; it may raise some suspicions, but the armor itself isn't going to get you into trouble... especially if it's Concealable Armor (even if the Conceal is 2). Like I said before, it's mostly an aesthetic choice. |
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Dec 1 2004, 08:33 PM
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#123
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Dragon Group: Members Posts: 4,664 Joined: 21-September 04 From: Arvada, CO Member No.: 6,686 |
Well, the other easy option for it is to have multiple pintle mounts, multiple internal mechanical arms, and multiple guns in each arm with the arm out of view. Now its completely legal, and the rigger can still shoot with all the arms. |
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Dec 1 2004, 08:41 PM
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#124
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Creating a god with his own hands Group: Members Posts: 1,405 Joined: 30-September 02 From: 0:0:0:0:0:0:0:1 Member No.: 3,364 |
That doesn't mean they'll find it out of the ordinary. The law uses drones too. |
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Dec 1 2004, 08:54 PM
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#125
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Dragon Group: Members Posts: 4,664 Joined: 21-September 04 From: Arvada, CO Member No.: 6,686 |
Note to self, see if theres a mechanic to obtain a transponder with a lonestar code, or various manufacturer codes for the companies that make the drone. "But officer, they sent me the drone as a temporary replacement for the one I ordered, thats their guns and stuff on it, they have the permits..." Officer checks the library, (library fools the checking machine) and you drive off happily. |
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