 Rigger Soul-searching, Can we do without them? |
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 Nov 30 2004, 01:03 AM
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#51
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Traumatizing players since 1992  Group: Dumpshocked Posts: 3,282 Joined: 26-February 02 From: Las Vegas, NV Member No.: 220  |
Easy, one has a fat wad in essence of cyber dedicated to doing absolutely nothing but control vehicles, the other does not.
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Nov 30 2004, 01:17 AM
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#52
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Canon Companion Group: Members Posts: 8,021 Joined: 2-March 03 From: The Morgue, Singapore LTG Member No.: 4,187 |
You can suffer dumpshock from using that drone. And please do not use that in a desert sandstorm, you'll get Stress like nobody's business.
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Nov 30 2004, 01:32 AM
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#53
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Creating a god with his own hands Group: Members Posts: 1,405 Joined: 30-September 02 From: 0:0:0:0:0:0:0:1 Member No.: 3,364 |
I love using bikes as rigged drones. Fast, manueverable, and if you remove the seat (3-5 cf, and about 70 more kg, depending on the bike and your gm)
enough to put on at least 2 turrets, an LMG in one, and a grenade launcher in the other. rocket hardpoints are nice too. |
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Nov 30 2004, 01:46 AM
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#54
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Dragon Group: Members Posts: 4,664 Joined: 21-September 04 From: Arvada, CO Member No.: 6,686 |
They are very nice. I am a fan of the rear facing 'nade launcher myself. As far as LMGs go, I prefer to avoid them, being that they're too situationally dependant on where they're mounted and how the people are oriented. I prefer to take your other option of the rocket instead. Rockouts out the front, and nades behind, good times. |
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Nov 30 2004, 02:19 AM
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#55
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Moving Target Group: Members Posts: 424 Joined: 11-May 02 From: Marauding the mighty North Saskatchewan Member No.: 2,720 |
Unfortunately the big problem with rigging a bike is the cost and weight of the gear to do so. The gyrostab unit that you need to enable you to do so plus the black box plus the r/c if you have it ammounts to quite a bit of weight - not to mention the fact you'd have to add a decent drone pilot, perhaps autonav firmpoints and weapons add even more. All of which impact the bike's handling and performance. Not to mention our rigger if he's actually riding the motorcycle is very vunlerable and since he's jacked in can't do anything aside from ride the bike. Where as a normal rider can do fun things like ride by clothslining, toss gernades and various other stunting activities. A drone bike doesn't have the advantage of a rider, so its easy to up end or just avoid. Lastly if you're rigging your bike and get knocked off it, not only do you take some nasty road rash, but you get to suffer dumpshock as well. (assuming you're not secured to it, but if you are you'll probably be pinned under it, especially if it has that extra weight) Simply put take two Suzuki Auroras rig one up the other just stock and you'll find that our unrigged bike will leave its rigged competitor in the dust. |
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Nov 30 2004, 02:23 AM
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#56
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Immortal Elf Group: Validating Posts: 7,999 Joined: 26-February 02 Member No.: 1,890 |
5kg for the Gyros, 0kg (10kg if you do it as a customization option instead of a design option) for the Rigger Adaptation. Oh, the horror. The Sensors 1 package takes up the most weight at a whopping 12kg. There isn't a single standard chopper or racing bike that couldn't handle that load with room to spare.
You, sir, are certifiably insane. Feel free to build your bike and a non-rigger rider. I'll do the same with a rigger. Then we'll compare. How's that sound? |
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Nov 30 2004, 02:27 AM
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#57
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Manus Celer Dei Group: Dumpshocked Posts: 17,013 Joined: 30-December 02 From: Boston Member No.: 3,802 |
NO. For a vehicle like this, there is NO REASON to have a decent drone interface. Unless you're willing to shell out for a robot or a high-rating drone and an autosoft interpreter system plus the chips, the primary use of drones will be with you jumped directly into them. You could get away with having no remote-control interface in there period and just having it be a rigged vehicle. As for getting knocked off the bike, if you're up against something that can knock a good rigger off the bike, whether you take the damage right then or in another fifteen seconds is moot. Also, with the ramming rules, there's no reason for a Rigger to need a weapons system for anything but long-range combat. ~J |
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Nov 30 2004, 02:41 AM
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#58
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Dragon Group: Members Posts: 4,664 Joined: 21-September 04 From: Arvada, CO Member No.: 6,686 |
Firstly, being in any combat vehicle WHILE rigging it unless it is your team transport is a very stupid idea. Especially if it is a bike. Next, how does a bike without a rider make it magically easier to up end or avoid? Hell, the one WITH the rider is easier to upend, it has no dodge pool! |
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Nov 30 2004, 03:24 AM
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#59
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Decker on the Threshold Group: Dumpshocked Posts: 2,922 Joined: 14-March 04 Member No.: 6,156 |
If you really want to integrate this idea into the rest of the SR world, you'll need one extra rule. See, as was pointed out above, physical boosts to initiative generally don't affect someone who is using pure DNI. This rule should, IMO, stay absolute. This means whenever you're physically driving (that is, using physical controls) you can take advantage of physical boosts to initiative; this includes when you're using the "virtual dashboard" of datajack driving, as driving via datajack really doesn't change the fact that you're still using the physical controls to drive. But, when your rigger decides to "jump into" a rigger-adapted vehicle, all those physical initiative bonuses go out the window. You're driving via mental command, so naturally being able to twitch your muscles faster won't really help that much. So, what's a rigger to do? Well, if you look over at the Matrix rules you find out that there is already a way for people jacked into machines to increase there initiative, without requiring any extra implants: the decker's Response Increase. What I'm proposing is that, just as the decker has Response Increase hardwired into his deck rather than his brain, so should the rigger have his Response Increase hardwired into the black box that is added to every rigger-adapted vehicle instead of *his* brain. I'd calculate the cost based on p. 66-67 of Matrix, using the vehicle's Body in place of MPCP for cost purposes, with an upper limit of 3 or the vehicle's Bod rating, whichever is lower. In this way we have the max Response Increase being a factor of the vehicle itself rather than the rigger, which makes more sense to me. [Edit] These rule changes also make more sense to me because they bring vehicle rules more in line with the *rest* of the SR rules, rather than leaving tham as even more of a weird corner case that noone wants to think about. The upswing of it all is almost none of the flavor of the rigger is changed, and very few of the mechanics. All that really changes in the end is that the rules are more internally consistent--thus easier to learn--and more fair for the non-rigger driver. |
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Nov 30 2004, 03:28 AM
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#60
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Manus Celer Dei Group: Dumpshocked Posts: 17,013 Joined: 30-December 02 From: Boston Member No.: 3,802 |
Then you have small, supposedly nimble drones reacting much more slowly than large lumbering trucks.
Honestly, I can't say the response increase being a factor of the vehicle makes sense to me. I'm not even sure it really makes sense to me for decking, either. ~J |
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Nov 30 2004, 03:48 AM
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#61
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Moving Target Group: Members Posts: 424 Joined: 11-May 02 From: Marauding the mighty North Saskatchewan Member No.: 2,720 |
Creativity, Funk my man, I haven't lost yet. ;) As per the advantages of being a rider, I'd assume that you probably haven't ever ridden a dirt or street bike. For example if a drone bike gets knocked over, how does it get back up? Next most bikes don't have reverse, so what happens when a drone gets suckered into a dead end that it can't turn around in? Its also easily foiled by simple barriers like fences, barricades etc. that a rider might be able to get around - say by opening the gate. Same sort of disadvantages a rigged bike has because our rider doesn't have the use of those helpful things - his limbs - until he jacks out. In reality a rigged bike would have other disadvantages in the fact that unless a different sort of RAS overide was created he can't move his body to shift his weight to manuverwhile cornering or braking. Now let me put things in perspective on the weight issue - forgive me I'm going to deal in imperial. we have your extras that amount to roughly 60lbs - but really to put them on par we need to upgrade sensors to 2 since our street sam rider probably has thermo. But we'll go with 60lbs. For your average sport bike we're looking at about 12% increase in its weight. Lets put this in real life perspective. Take about a '99 GSX-R 600 and an '04 model you'll find about the same difference for bikes which have about the same horsies. Guess which beats which on the track? |
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Nov 30 2004, 03:57 AM
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#62
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Beetle Eater Group: Dumpshocked Posts: 4,797 Joined: 3-June 02 From: Oblivion City Member No.: 2,826 |
Lodestar, are you trying to compare the game to real life?
Gyroscopic stabiliation unit.
Gyroscopic stabiliation unit.
Gyroscopic stabiliation unit (wheelie in a circle).
Or goes into Captin's Chair mode. Seriously, the dude has to get off the bike to do these things either way.
Guess what's not reflected in the rules? |
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Nov 30 2004, 03:59 AM
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#63
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Running Target Group: Members Posts: 1,028 Joined: 9-November 02 From: The Republic of Vermont Member No.: 3,581 |
Note that the raw weight of the vehicle has ABSOLUTELY NOTHING to do with its performance under the R3 construction rules.
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Nov 30 2004, 04:04 AM
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#64
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Manus Celer Dei Group: Dumpshocked Posts: 17,013 Joined: 30-December 02 From: Boston Member No.: 3,802 |
Also note that the improved ability of the rigger to push the bike to the absolute limits of its performance would make up for that, even if it were accounted for under the rules.
~J |
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Nov 30 2004, 04:04 AM
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#65
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Running Target Group: Members Posts: 1,070 Joined: 7-February 04 From: NYC Member No.: 6,058 |
BS. Wanna tell me, in non-game terms, what the difference is between a medium anthrophorm drone and a complete cyber-body, and why one is classed as a vehicle, and the other as a collection of prosthetic limbs? The difference is completely arbitrary. Why would anyone ever make a cyberzombie, when you can just amputate most of someone's body, strap on a life support system and VCR3, put the whole thing in an armored capsule, and stick it on an anthrophorm covered in vehicular armor? It's vastly better in combat, and doesn't require expensive cybermancy. |
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Nov 30 2004, 04:07 AM
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#66
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Moving Target Group: Members Posts: 247 Joined: 28-November 04 Member No.: 6,852 |
Interesting arguement, to say the least...
My idea would be to allow non-VCR drivers to use half of their normal initiative bonuses, and have half of the normal control pool. This would still give them some bonuses for their Wired Reflexes and such, yet still allow the Rigger to have driving superiority in most cases. Of course, if you add a datajack link, you could take advantage of sensors and such. Just a thought... |
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Nov 30 2004, 04:07 AM
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#67
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Decker on the Threshold Group: Dumpshocked Posts: 2,922 Joined: 14-March 04 Member No.: 6,156 |
You know that's true. Maybe it should be based on the Handling then, or the Speed or Acceloration? Maybe a max of (6 - Handling), to a maximum of 3? Honestly I agree with you; in an ideal world mental initiative boosts would and should be the domain of neuro-cyberware implants like the encephalon. But let's stick to one paradign shift at a time, eh? :) |
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Nov 30 2004, 04:07 AM
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#68
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Immortal Elf Group: Validating Posts: 7,999 Joined: 26-February 02 Member No.: 1,890 |
Shhhh... you're not supposed to realize such things. |
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Nov 30 2004, 04:08 AM
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#69
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Beetle Eater Group: Dumpshocked Posts: 4,797 Joined: 3-June 02 From: Oblivion City Member No.: 2,826 |
Cybermancy is research into immortality, but what you describe would result in the same (essence loss beyond the pale), IMO. |
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Nov 30 2004, 04:55 AM
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#70
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Running Target Group: Members Posts: 1,028 Joined: 9-November 02 From: The Republic of Vermont Member No.: 3,581 |
Use a heavy anthroform, and you can skip the body-amputation step. The result's a bit big for playing indoors, but, hey, so are trolls.
Or you can just remote control it. |
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Nov 30 2004, 05:34 AM
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#71
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Moving Target Group: Members Posts: 424 Joined: 11-May 02 From: Marauding the mighty North Saskatchewan Member No.: 2,720 |
No offense dude, but do you have any idea how gyros work? |
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Nov 30 2004, 05:38 AM
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#72
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Beetle Eater Group: Dumpshocked Posts: 4,797 Joined: 3-June 02 From: Oblivion City Member No.: 2,826 |
No offense dude, but do you understand what the purpose of the Gyroscopic Stabilization Unit is?
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Nov 30 2004, 05:38 AM
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#73
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Running Target Group: Members Posts: 1,070 Joined: 7-February 04 From: NYC Member No.: 6,058 |
It should result in massive essence loss and require cybermancy, but by the rules, it doesn't - because it's a vehicle, not a cybernetic body. :S |
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Nov 30 2004, 05:38 AM
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#74
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Manus Celer Dei Group: Dumpshocked Posts: 17,013 Joined: 30-December 02 From: Boston Member No.: 3,802 |
If you brake a gyro, you can get a decent jump in the opposite direction from where you applied the braking.
~J |
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Nov 30 2004, 05:39 AM
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#75
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Beetle Eater Group: Dumpshocked Posts: 4,797 Joined: 3-June 02 From: Oblivion City Member No.: 2,826 |
Where are the rules on permanent life support systems? |
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