 Rigger Soul-searching, Can we do without them? |
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 Nov 30 2004, 05:43 AM
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#76
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Creating a god with his own hands  Group: Members Posts: 1,405 Joined: 30-September 02 From: 0:0:0:0:0:0:0:1 Member No.: 3,364  |
another neat little trick you can do is attach a mine-deployment rack. mines have the same avail as similar grenades. the reason I use LMGs or ARs instead of rockets is that the GM liked to use the official response times. rockets gave me less time to get things done and the team out. plus, with vehicle mounts you need not worry about conceal rating, so you can slap on all the accessories you need (Like suppressors and recoil compensation) |
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Nov 30 2004, 05:48 AM
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#77
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Moving Target Group: Members Posts: 152 Joined: 24-October 04 Member No.: 6,785 |
An anthroform drone doesn't have a juicy center. Cyberskulls and torsos just reinforce and encapsulate. Cybertorsos might go so far as to replace bones and muscle and such in the torso, but as far as I can tel from the p28 M&M description, not all of them do. The point being, quite a bit of the cyber-monkey is still organic, and can keep itself alive, most of the parts connect to the cyber-monkey's brain through organic connections, and are powered by the body's own metabolic processes. Also note that a full cyberbody is invasive enough to kill the guy that sports it, and higher grades of cyber are based more and more on "organic" style complonents (organic polymers vs. metals and servos) and interweaving non-organics into the host as opposed to just chopping and replacing. Anthorphorm drones are just overly complex sets of mechanical arms with a computor somewhere to coordinate them. They need some sort of external power source to operate, and are not capable of the type of dicision making and higher order thinking that a Meta-human is. Deus's Skellbots are probably pretty close to SOTA in Anthroform design, and they really aren't that impressive compared to what a Meta-human can do naturally (unless the two are in a soaking bullets contest). Drones also need to be part of a network to recieve commands and such, and are bound to the commands of said network, and even with all the robotics upgrades, they still cannot operate outside of their programmed tasks and do not have the processing power to give them the same small-motor skills on par with a cyberlimb. That would take a very sophisticated SK or even an AI to accomplish, and considering Renraku expected it to take 25,000 Mp to store a chopped up and compressed AI (in Brainscan), I doubt that giving an anthroform the processing power to run one is possible. |
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Nov 30 2004, 05:51 AM
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#78
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Immortal Elf Group: Validating Posts: 7,999 Joined: 26-February 02 Member No.: 1,890 |
Effectively, it's just called the Quadraplegic flaw. |
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Nov 30 2004, 05:52 AM
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#79
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Dragon Group: Members Posts: 4,664 Joined: 21-September 04 From: Arvada, CO Member No.: 6,686 |
I'll give better answers....
"A rigger can override the simsense through sheer concentration to assume temporary control of her body, should the need arise. However, doing so imposes a +8 modifier on all physical actions and Perception tests." R3R pg 27. You could lean and argue that since you don't have to roll it normally, you still don't. Alternately, the gyro unit keeps the bike upright regardless of if you're leaning or not.
It doesn't. The Gyroscopic stabiliation unit keeps the bike upright.
Driving test +3 for a tight area, -VCR Rating for a rigger controlling it.
Put a mechanical arm on the front. Or override the simsense and open it. Or use the rocket launcher.
Well, he has this one right. |
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Nov 30 2004, 06:24 AM
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#80
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Moving Target Group: Members Posts: 247 Joined: 28-November 04 Member No.: 6,852 |
Everybody's so busy arguing about Gyroscopic stabilization units that my previous post seems to have been overlooked. Allow me to repeat myself...
Sorry to steal the spotlight, but I want opinions on my idea. |
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Nov 30 2004, 06:28 AM
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#81
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Dragon Group: Members Posts: 4,664 Joined: 21-September 04 From: Arvada, CO Member No.: 6,686 |
Shrapnel, heres my opinion (since you asked for it).
Normal initiative bonuses have nothing to do with rigging a vehicle. Period. I'd say allow the half initiative bonus, but not the control pool (how would you attempt to dodge while driving in your car? swerve a bit?) |
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Nov 30 2004, 06:35 AM
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#82
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Manus Celer Dei Group: Dumpshocked Posts: 17,013 Joined: 30-December 02 From: Boston Member No.: 3,802 |
Suggestion:
While driving a vehicle, unrigged and no datajack: 1/2 normal initiative bonus, 1/2 of adjusted Reaction in Control Pool. While driving a vehicle, unrigged and using datajack link: no initiative bonus, full nonadjusted Reaction in Control Pool, other normal bonuses to driving from datajack link. ~J |
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Nov 30 2004, 06:40 AM
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#83
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Runner Group: Members Posts: 2,598 Joined: 15-March 03 From: Hong Kong Member No.: 4,253 |
Of course the problem here is the assumption that the mind is as 'slow' as the body is... Considering that the speed enhancers only function at the behest of the mind, the mind has to be capable of sorting and processing information, then issuing 'directives' on the basis of the information all at 4 actions a combat turn (or whatever).
IMHO, fully fully DNI interfaces should have an initiative bonus similar to the bonus for astrally projected mages. |
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Nov 30 2004, 06:42 AM
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#84
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Moving Target Group: Members Posts: 247 Joined: 28-November 04 Member No.: 6,852 |
Exactly... How would one dodge as a rigger? And as for initiative bonuses affecting driving, they do affect how fast you react to thing, right? And how fast you can move, right? So why not get at least some bonus while driving? Of course, the bonus wouldn't be as good as when rigging, do to the imprecise nature of things like steering wheels and accelerators, but the idea is still the same. Kinda like when you drive under the effects of medication, only in reverse! :D I think Kagetenshi and I are almost on the same page... Same book, at least... |
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Nov 30 2004, 06:48 AM
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#85
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Target Group: Members Posts: 20 Joined: 1-January 04 Member No.: 5,946 |
To get back to the original point of the post, since all y'all seem content to crunch numbers and shoot the shit:
Riggers have the most annoying, difficult to integrate rules system in the game that can still be removed entirely without damaging the other rules systems or the continuity of the game world. Try removing magic, or decking - it just doesn't work. Try removing rigging, and your average Joe on the street wouldn't know the difference. What I'm trying to say isn't the rigging isn't fun, that it can't be totally rewarding for the player and the GM. What I am saying is that if you're not interested in running riggers, and your players aren't either, you're not really missing a whole lot. Personally I find the vehicle rules to be ridiculously complex in some ways and ridiculously incomplete in others. If you do choose to leave out riggers, make sure that you keep a few NPC riggers in your back pocket for special occasions, but make the majority of vehicle opposition un-rigged. With a slight alteration to the game world, you could just make VCRs a recent development in technology, shooting the street price up to a couple million, out of the price range of starting characters, but still within the price range of really top-notch corp security forces. |
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Nov 30 2004, 06:59 AM
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#86
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Manus Celer Dei Group: Dumpshocked Posts: 17,013 Joined: 30-December 02 From: Boston Member No.: 3,802 |
You could do the same with magic :P
~J |
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Nov 30 2004, 07:17 AM
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#87
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Decker on the Threshold Group: Dumpshocked Posts: 2,922 Joined: 14-March 04 Member No.: 6,156 |
Well then it's not really Shadowrun is it? :P
In all honesty I don't know why the non-rigger types can't just get their normal initiative boosts or Control Pool when physically driving the vehicle. It's not like they haven't already paid through the nose for those enhancements, or that they'll ever be albe to truly compete with a real rigger in any non-pathological scenario. It just seems like a fool way to create an artificial difference between rigger and non-rigger, rather like the Trapfinding ability in D&D seperates rogues from non-rogues. No matter how skilled a person is at driving (Car skill 24 or something equally ridiculous) he'll never be able to dodge a bullet like a guy with a VCR 1 and no Car skill at all can. |
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Nov 30 2004, 10:09 AM
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#88
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Running Target Group: Members Posts: 1,133 Joined: 3-October 04 Member No.: 6,722 |
Unless you were to house-rule a vehicular version of the athletic dodge rule from CC (p.97). |
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Nov 30 2004, 01:41 PM
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#89
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Manus Celer Dei Group: Dumpshocked Posts: 17,013 Joined: 30-December 02 From: Boston Member No.: 3,802 |
I could say the same about Riggerlessrun :P ~J |
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Nov 30 2004, 01:51 PM
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#90
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Moving Target Group: Members Posts: 903 Joined: 11-December 02 From: The other end of your computer screen Member No.: 3,724 |
I'm using Doc's idea from now on.
I like that one alot. *kicks the weeping rigger on the way out of the thread.* |
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Nov 30 2004, 02:02 PM
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#91
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Target Group: Members Posts: 36 Joined: 3-November 04 From: in the trenches Member No.: 6,805 |
Methinks, I opened a can of wyrms there...
I'll probably also second the good Doctor Funkenstein's views. Or rather get my runners to places where they need a PILOT and then all that techno-babble from SRIII and RiggerIII finally makes some sense. ;) Thanks evereyone for the contributions. Edifying, they were, to say the least. |
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Nov 30 2004, 02:26 PM
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#92
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Running Target Group: Members Posts: 1,070 Joined: 7-February 04 From: NYC Member No.: 6,058 |
A mechanical body is a mechanical body... Sure, the cyber-body has some organs at the core, but the whole skeleto-muscular system is a machine at that point - what's the reason it can't be rigged? And why can a Body 3 large anthrophorm be covered in a huge amount of vehicular armor, but a Body 10 troll cyberzombie with a complete cyber-body can only use personal armor? These rules make no sense. |
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Nov 30 2004, 02:50 PM
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#93
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Manus Celer Dei Group: Dumpshocked Posts: 17,013 Joined: 30-December 02 From: Boston Member No.: 3,802 |
A Body 3 large anthroform is also the size of a mid-sized sedan. Body 2 drones, though, you have a point about.
~J |
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Nov 30 2004, 02:53 PM
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#94
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Dragon Group: Members Posts: 4,664 Joined: 21-September 04 From: Arvada, CO Member No.: 6,686 |
It can, what do you think snake eyes and some remote controlled skill wires are for? |
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Nov 30 2004, 02:57 PM
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#95
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Moving Target Group: Members Posts: 693 Joined: 26-March 03 Member No.: 4,335 |
Of course. It definately is inconsistent, because Vehicle Body <> Character Body. Different scales.
(And do we really _want_ Body 10 trolls with vehicle armor?) An alternative, of course, is to have vehicles on the same scale as characters, but with much higher armor ratings, and around 100-1000 Body. That's a lot of dice. As an aside... Does anyone remember what the difference was between character damage points and SDP (for borgs, cars, and powersuits) in CP2020? |
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Nov 30 2004, 03:44 PM
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#96
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Manus Celer Dei Group: Dumpshocked Posts: 17,013 Joined: 30-December 02 From: Boston Member No.: 3,802 |
The reason they made a new scale of damage for vehicles is because even with Body scores in the hundreds, staging down a very high-Power attack is more or less impossible. Same problem with naval-scale weaponry. The line may need to be shifted, but having vehicle body mean something different from character body isn’t such a bad thing IMO.
~J |
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Nov 30 2004, 04:46 PM
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#97
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Target Group: Members Posts: 36 Joined: 3-November 04 From: in the trenches Member No.: 6,805 |
Ah, missed Grinzwilly's post up there.
Definitely one of the ways to go! Thanks a lot. |
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Nov 30 2004, 05:16 PM
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#98
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Moving Target Group: Members Posts: 424 Joined: 11-May 02 From: Marauding the mighty North Saskatchewan Member No.: 2,720 |
Where does it say that a normal driver doesn't get his reaction bonuses when driving? No really, does anyone have a page reference?
Secondly here's a question: why does a datajack for a motorcycle cost more than a rigger's black box, especially when the black box includes a datajack? |
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Nov 30 2004, 05:19 PM
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#99
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Manus Celer Dei Group: Dumpshocked Posts: 17,013 Joined: 30-December 02 From: Boston Member No.: 3,802 |
Because the Black Box doesn't include a datajack. Remember, you need that box for rigged remote-control adaptation, too.
~J |
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Nov 30 2004, 05:24 PM
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#100
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Running Target Group: Members Posts: 1,028 Joined: 9-November 02 From: The Republic of Vermont Member No.: 3,581 |
But with Body scores of 2-3, staging down any attack is more or less impossible. |
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