 Hermetics,shamans,Idol warshipersand voodoo people, Oh MY! |
  |
 Dec 3 2004, 09:12 AM
Post
#26
|
|
|
Great Dragon  Group: Members Posts: 7,116 Joined: 26-February 02 Member No.: 1,449  |
I kind of prefer the Totems and Idols as vague archetypes that can vary from one shaman to another. Some might see their Totem or Idol in terms of their religion, while others see it as an anthropomorphized ideal to follow. I think the broad behavioral restrictions and disadvantages, which still allow for lots of variation, are more than enough. I would not want every shaman to have to play the equivalent of an AD&D cleric.
|
 |
 
|
|
Dec 3 2004, 10:20 PM
Post
#27
|
|||||
|
Midnight Toker Group: Members Posts: 7,686 Joined: 4-July 04 From: Zombie Drop Bear Santa's Workshop Member No.: 6,456 |
The real problem with panthestic magic rules is that there are so many gods that it is impossible to include every one that a character might worship. The idols system relieved this by including many gods under the umbrella of a single idol. Getting rid of the idols would require independant totem modifiers for every diety and has ever and will ever be worshipped, not an easy task. Another option would be to remove the totem modifier from idol worshippers alltogether, but that isn't fair. The totem modifier is an important part of Shamantic magic. A better solution might be rules to make custom totem modifiers. Bonus dice for spell classes, spirit types, time, or other conditions are worth a certain amount of points. Penalities of the same type are worth negative points. The pagan shaman must choose a set of modifiers that total 0. It would be wise to rule that different types of modifiers cannon be stacked, as it would lead to someone taking a spell catagory bonus and a time bonus to get double the effects. |
||||
|
|
|
||||
|
Dec 3 2004, 10:25 PM
Post
#28
|
|
|
Running Target Group: Members Posts: 1,032 Joined: 6-August 04 Member No.: 6,543 |
How many Totems are there?I like the idea of picking bonuses,but my point was really that totems should fallow the same rules as idols,and not the other way around.
|
|
|
|
|
Dec 3 2004, 10:33 PM
Post
#29
|
|||
|
Runner Group: Members Posts: 3,314 Joined: 26-February 02 From: Lisbon, Cidade do Pecado Member No.: 185 |
I take it you're not familiar or dislike the Panthaestic shaman rules from MITS (page 16) and the add-on in SOTA64 (page 122) which offers a paganistic approach reasoning for the varying modifiers from MITS. Personally I've never had a problem with either. |
||
|
|
|
||
|
Dec 4 2004, 12:59 AM
Post
#30
|
|
|
Midnight Toker Group: Members Posts: 7,686 Joined: 4-July 04 From: Zombie Drop Bear Santa's Workshop Member No.: 6,456 |
I have no problem with the current rules, they're as good as any and better than most; I was just posting an idea with a little more flexibility in response to the posts of others.
|
|
|
|
|
Dec 4 2004, 11:33 PM
Post
#31
|
|
|
Running Target Group: Members Posts: 1,032 Joined: 6-August 04 Member No.: 6,543 |
I just read the stuff in SOTA2064 and I have to say it didn't really fix the problem.It just changed it. You take a man who is religiously a follower of Thor.If he is magically active, why would his Idol be any more likely to be Thor? Or what if he is a hermetic?
Why is that Christianility seems to be the only religion to no judge on where the magic comes from,and judges the person who uses it. Not all of Christianilty but more than a lot of the others. Or rather if I belive in the "One true God" I could be stuck with any number of totems or what not,but if I believed in Odin,I would get the Idol Odin. And what if I didn't beleive in any God? WOuld that mean I would be hermetic? WOuld that also mean if I was shaman,I would have to fallow a toem,and not an Idol? |
|
|
|
|
Dec 4 2004, 11:46 PM
Post
#32
|
|
|
Immortal Elf Group: Members Posts: 11,410 Joined: 1-October 03 From: Pittsburgh Member No.: 5,670 |
mabye because one's magical ability isn't always related to their belief structure. just because you worship the aesir doesn't mean that you're a shaman of one or all of them.
|
|
|
|
|
Dec 5 2004, 12:09 AM
Post
#33
|
|
|
Running Target Group: Members Posts: 1,028 Joined: 9-November 02 From: The Republic of Vermont Member No.: 3,581 |
I've a long-standing character who is Asatru and a hermetic sorcerer, and the gaming police have yet to kick down my door and force me to make him an idol shaman. His religion and his magic are not totally separate, but he believes magic to be a power external to the gods, that they are simply superhumanly capable with, not a power granted to mortals by the gods. His magical rituals are based on Norse mythology, but are not prayers to Odin or other Æsir, but, rather, attempts to emulate them. (His first initiation involved spending nine days hanging from an oak.)
He's also a dwarf, and has as an article of faith that his ancestors were responsible for the forging of most of the Æsir's artifacts of power, which perhaps skews his worldview somewhat. |
|
|
|
|
Dec 5 2004, 03:21 AM
Post
#34
|
|||||||
|
Moving Target Group: Members Posts: 179 Joined: 26-February 02 Member No.: 381 |
I don't get the way you read the rules. The system is very flexible and allows for any variation you might ask for. To answer your questions: - if your Idol is Thor (or rather an aspect of Thor) this means that you identify yourself with some ideals connected to Thor. If you are Ásatru (religiously a follower of Thor and the rest of the Aesir) you are likely to interpret your magical forces within these beliefs. That's all there is to it according to the rules. You might be a Christian or Atheist and still have Thor as your Idol as long as the values and ideals connected to Thor is something you identify with and tries to live according to. You may also be an Ásatru and practice hermetic magic, no rules against it. It is all a matter of how the character interprets his magic. The rules has guidelines to what is most common, there are no definite no regarding combinations of magic and religion.
- that's a theological question and they don't agree among each other. It is a matter to be resolved in-game, with the schism in the Catholic Church as one example. But of course it also has much to do with "political correctness" where the original designers didn't want to step on anyone's toes.
The answer to all of these "what if's" are NO! RTFB. I'm amazed at your ability to misinterpret the rules. It says clearly in SOTA2064 that Idols |= gods. Edit: To John Campbell: The gaming police are to busy rounding up those who still play SR2 and refuses to make the switch :smokin: But is'a cool character. He may end up as a Norse talismonger in one of my campaigns, (and I think your way of playing his magic is entirely correct, Norse magic is not about prayers). |
||||||
|
|
|
||||||
|
Dec 5 2004, 03:05 PM
Post
#35
|
|
|
Runner Group: Members Posts: 3,314 Joined: 26-February 02 From: Lisbon, Cidade do Pecado Member No.: 185 |
Audun is correct. SOTA64 even specifically presents two different approaches to "Norse magic" to help you understand that there are subtle distinctions (namely the Pagan Norse magicians and the Teutonic paradigm Hermetics).
Idols are frameworks of archetypical ideals and concepts that the magican identifies with and help him focus his spiritual and esoteric development in a certain direction. If a magician is also a believer in a given faith, it is likelier (though not certain) that he will view such ideals through the prism of his belief and interpret them in the context of his faith's cosmology. As such a Norse gode might look to Wotan/Odin as symbolic of the ideal he seeks, choosing the Wise Warrior aspect of the many facets of the All-Father to pay homage to - and as a idealized mental construct to focus his magic use. If you're an Asartu believer, it's far likelier that you will percieve the Gods of the pantheon you actually believe in as an Ideal/Idol/divine aspect to emulate, than a figure/idol drawn from another religion (ie. Loki instead of say Coyote, Eris or Hanuman). |
|
|
|
|
Dec 5 2004, 04:11 PM
Post
#36
|
|
|
Prime Runner Group: Members Posts: 3,577 Joined: 26-February 02 From: Gwynedd Valley PA Member No.: 1,221 |
I'd dispute the idea of"Mars" et al being "dead gods." Just because you don't call an old boy friend, doesn't mean he's not around anymore.
In RL Voodoun, the belief is that the loa are not so much gods themselves as they are intermediaries between mortals and the ultimate divine, because if you were to view the true power of God it would fry your mind. The closest western tradition is in Judeo-Christian mythology that you dare not look at God's face. Moses saw him as a burning bush and column of fire, He walked past Isaiah who only saw the back of his head etc. and so mortals deal with angels who go to God. Only the loa of Voodoun are more "earthy." Magicians are more scientific, they have access of abilities that let them understand the nature of the universe better than mundanes. Super-natural means beyond nature. Instead they have a better understanding of the rules of nature and how they work and can be manipulated. Why on 1% of the population have the potential for htis is unknown. Shamanitc types are rather different. They don't view it in the same way, so the question is that they either see more or less than the nature of the universe. Are they less able to handle it so that their minds make an imaginary friend to explain it all too them? OR do they see rather more of it and reach beyond the magcians' understanding of sturcture to the "entity/beings" beyond the material world? |
|
|
|
|
Dec 6 2004, 10:26 PM
Post
#37
|
|||
|
Running Target Group: Members Posts: 1,032 Joined: 6-August 04 Member No.: 6,543 |
And I can go with that,and that is not my problem. My problem is that this set of ideals doesn't seem equally true to all. In other words some people who believe in one set of "Gods" and other who belive in another are not treated the same way. It seems from the point of view of the authors,that it is unlikely for someone who religiously fallows Odin,to get the Idol Mars,God, or Mithris. But Someone who is Jewish is just as likely to get the Idol Mars,Odin, or mithris as anyone else. Even more so it is some how far more likely for her to get Dog,Cat, Ox, or some totem. So on one hand they say that it dosen't mater what power you prey to when it comes to magic, but at the same time you do not have many Idol followers in the NAN, but you have plenty of Totem followers in Rome. |
||
|
|
|
||
|
Dec 6 2004, 11:14 PM
Post
#38
|
|||||
|
Runner Group: Members Posts: 3,314 Joined: 26-February 02 From: Lisbon, Cidade do Pecado Member No.: 185 |
You are correct regarding the first statement but I have no idea where you're getting the second one from. Yes, it is highly unlikely that someone who believes in the Aesir will follow Mars or the Christian God as an Idol, for the same reasons it makes little sense for a Wiccan today to pay tribute to the Kami or Baron Samedi. A lot of people tend to forget that while characters practice magic as individuals and have their ideosyncracies, magic lore is divided into traditions and schools/paradigms of magic. Traditions represent entire schools of thought, and schools divide these into distinct groupings lore and beliefs, rituals, cosmologies and magical systems, that represent the common ground of all practioners of that school. These paradigms are the common ground between all magicians that practice them and represent a basic framework for magic they all share. Most also assume the magician is taught by someone who already practices the same magic. Finally, these paradigms (hermetic and otherwise) are also grounded in the cultures and societies that gave birth to them, simply because many of the references they use are ingrained into a particular culture rather than being universal (an American magician trying to learn an invocation written in Japanese script and using Nipponic esoteric symbology isn't going to learn much). It is improbable (meaning it would require serious explaining) that an Awakened American Indian born and grown in the NAN would develop his talent along the Path of Wuxing, the Path of the Wheel or Neo-Pagan Druidism. Why? Simply because there's no cultural reference for him to use or build on, excepting a fortitiously placed wandering druid or wujen, he simply lacks the references. Your mistaken about the Christians as well, I've mentioned on numerous occasions (recently here, here and extensively here and here) the problems arising from trying to be a shaman in the Roman Catholic Church (even one with God as an Idol) and you should expect the same sort of problem for any Jew following a non-Hebrew Idol figure (in fact that would automatically disqualify anyone from even learning Jewish Orthodox Qabbalah -note: not Hermetic Qabbalah).
That's simply because the way you view the world and hence magic, has very much to do with the culture and society you are brought up in. It is highly unlikely someone brought up in Japan would ever follow an aspect of Thor as an Idol simply because it's not a reference he will recognize and identify with on a spiritual level. And if there is a Japanese God that matches Thor, its far more likely the emerging Idol follower would chose an aspect of that diety simply because it is a cultural and religious reference he understands. |
||||
|
|
|
||||
|
Dec 7 2004, 04:12 AM
Post
#39
|
|
|
Immortal Elf Group: Members Posts: 11,410 Joined: 1-October 03 From: Pittsburgh Member No.: 5,670 |
cynic, it can be determined from the sourcebooks that the various totems do not simply pick people at random to grant their power to. a trend like that--japanese people getting power from Thor, christians getting power from Wolf, etc.--would certainly have been remarked upon at some point, in some book. if the various totems exist as entities, then they are apparently limited to granting their power to only certain people--basically, people who would follow/emulate a given totem even without the draw of magic. the animal totems seem to be a bit more free, in regards to whom can recieve their power, probably because people of every religion and ethnicity compare people with animals ("eyes like a hawk", "eager beaver", etcetra). people in japan, however, don't very often go around comparing someone's search for knowledge to the trials of Odin, however, so Odin isn't going to grant any power to 99% of japanese mages.
|
|
|
|
|
Dec 7 2004, 07:48 PM
Post
#40
|
|||
|
Moving Target Group: Members Posts: 527 Joined: 30-January 04 Member No.: 6,043 |
I think you're overestimating the power Church doctrine has over the lives of its members. If individual Catholics (in the US, for example) can countenance or even support abortion and/or the death penalty, both of which the Church sternly opposes in no uncertain terms, then individual Catholics can certainly become shamans. Since we're talking about fictional people, I would suggest that their power somehow be integrated with their religious belief. Yes, the Church is likely to disapprove; is this going to matter to someone fairly individualistic (like a shaman), no. If they feel, on a personal level, that everything works out between them and God, it's a-okay. |
||
|
|
|
||
|
Dec 7 2004, 10:12 PM
Post
#41
|
|
|
Runner Group: Members Posts: 3,314 Joined: 26-February 02 From: Lisbon, Cidade do Pecado Member No.: 185 |
If you read my comments again (both linked and in this thread), you will note that I was referring specifically to members of the Catholic clergy, and not any Catholic believer in response to Cynic's comments regarding "Totem followers in Rome" which to me seemed to indicate he was too. The Catholic Church has no intention of regulating magic practices beyond its own clergy.
Whether a Catholic believer who had a strict and conservative Catholic worldview drilled into him, and happens to have the Talent would ever be able to Awaken as a shaman is another issue entirely. |
|
|
|
|
Dec 7 2004, 10:30 PM
Post
#42
|
|||
|
Running Target Group: Members Posts: 1,032 Joined: 6-August 04 Member No.: 6,543 |
So, why does Dog have more power than God? This my point. Why do they point out that some people all around the world fallow animals, and only is small places or mind sets do they fallow gods? |
||
|
|
|
||
|
Dec 7 2004, 10:32 PM
Post
#43
|
|
|
Manus Celer Dei Group: Dumpshocked Posts: 17,013 Joined: 30-December 02 From: Boston Member No.: 3,802 |
Because Dog is cool. God is, like, so 1400s.
Also because they're called shamans, being people who commune with the spirit world in animistic societies. If they called them, say, "priests" it'd probably be the other way around. ~J |
|
|
|
|
Dec 7 2004, 10:38 PM
Post
#44
|
|
|
Running Target Group: Members Posts: 1,032 Joined: 6-August 04 Member No.: 6,543 |
Um, you haven't done a lot of studding,have you? Shamans have come in many forms,some of them fallowed gods,animals,forces of nature,land masses, stellar bodies,and so on. There are many of shamans who preyed to the Sun. Is the sun animal?
|
|
|
|
|
Dec 7 2004, 10:39 PM
Post
#45
|
|||
|
Immortal Elf Group: Members Posts: 11,410 Joined: 1-October 03 From: Pittsburgh Member No.: 5,670 |
my answer to that question would be that dogs are more common than YHWHs. every culture has dogs; their characteristics are well-known, and dogs tend to be viewed much the same way from culture to culture. if a frenchman and and a chinese man describe someone as having doglike qualities (assuming they're not being insulting), they're probably describing similar personality traits: loyalty, etcetera. the christian god, however, is much less prevalent. lots of different people have lots of different opinions on him; his status in what i guess i'll call the collective unconscious (referring to similarities in mindsets, not actual links between minds) is much less stable than that of a dog's. basically, everybody knows what dogs are, and can espouse the qualities of dogginess as being positive. not everyone can do that with YHWH, so YWHW's ability to link up with the Awakened is more limited. this is all, however, only my opinion. |
||
|
|
|
||
|
Dec 7 2004, 10:46 PM
Post
#46
|
|||
|
Manus Celer Dei Group: Dumpshocked Posts: 17,013 Joined: 30-December 02 From: Boston Member No.: 3,802 |
No, I've never been used as breeding stock. I have, however, done some studying, which seems to be more than you've done. Where the fuck have you gotten the idea that I discounted any of what you listed? In the societies that practiced shamanism gods tended to be identified as natural entities rather than as their own independent entities. YHWH does not fit the shamanistic mindset. Ra doesn't really either, but the Sun definitely does. Edit: So if you want an example of why an Odin shaman is ridiculous, check out Norse mythology where Odin is listed as the foremost shaman. Unless we don't mind Daniel Howling Coyote shamans, though I guess if we've already got Toaster... ~J |
||
|
|
|
||
|
Dec 7 2004, 10:57 PM
Post
#47
|
|
|
Running Target Group: Members Posts: 1,028 Joined: 9-November 02 From: The Republic of Vermont Member No.: 3,581 |
Note that "animal" and "animistic", despite sharing a common etymological origin - Latin anima, "spirit" - do not mean the same thing.
|
|
|
|
|
Dec 7 2004, 10:58 PM
Post
#48
|
|||||
|
Running Target Group: Members Posts: 1,032 Joined: 6-August 04 Member No.: 6,543 |
And then you have Superman,Ares Macrotech,the computer,and so on. I do not think it is based only on idea their characteristics are well-known. As noted there are many things that are welll known and are not Idols or Totems on wide scales. |
||||
|
|
|
||||
|
Dec 7 2004, 11:30 PM
Post
#49
|
|
|
Immortal Elf Group: Members Posts: 11,410 Joined: 1-October 03 From: Pittsburgh Member No.: 5,670 |
that's because you keep insisting on seeing totems and idols as cohesive entities. if you wanted to make a shaman of Superman in my game, i'd probably let you, as long as i thought you could play it well--you'd probably end up being a shaman of the Dragonslayer totem. a shaman of Ares Macrotech, probably not, simply because Ares doesn't tend to inspire deeply-held attitudes and beliefs.
|
|
|
|
|
Dec 8 2004, 11:26 PM
Post
#50
|
|
|
Running Target Group: Members Posts: 1,032 Joined: 6-August 04 Member No.: 6,543 |
If you get a large enough group of people in anyone type of group you will have those who are fanatic about it. You have millions of people working for Ares, and as stated in SOTA2064 the big boys do a lot to keep their workers happy. You are likely to find that people will truly believe that Ares is the great hope of USA. That in Ares they trust.
But I went to reading the basic book,and it has a strange little passage.Totems chose it's followers. It is really odd, and it is magic,so I can say this. I do not like the rules,and the mood that they have choosen for this part of the game,I do have to say that it is better than anything I have read in any other game. |
|
|
|
|
|
Lo-Fi Version | Time is now: 24th May 2026 - 07:17 PM |
Topps, Inc has sole ownership of the names, logo, artwork, marks, photographs, sounds, audio, video and/or any proprietary material used in connection with the game Shadowrun. Topps, Inc has granted permission to the Dumpshock Forums to use such names, logos, artwork, marks and/or any proprietary materials for promotional and informational purposes on its website but does not endorse, and is not affiliated with the Dumpshock Forums in any official capacity whatsoever.