 Intiate Grades ... who's the big gun?, Oddball, but. |
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 Dec 3 2004, 07:51 AM
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#151
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Beetle Eater  Group: Dumpshocked Posts: 4,797 Joined: 3-June 02 From: Oblivion City Member No.: 2,826  |
Which just blows my mind, since all of those are about player cleverness in character creation and roleplaying - they are ways to reward the players for being cool, IMO.
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Dec 3 2004, 07:55 AM
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#152
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Immortal Elf Group: Validating Posts: 7,999 Joined: 26-February 02 Member No.: 1,890 |
That's the thing. Karma isn't a player-only award. It's a character award that can come from player control. There's even a few awards that are specifically aimed at the player rather than the character (like Humor), but in the end it's still a character award as the character is the one who benefits from it.
But like all the things mentioned throughout the thread, karma wards obviously occur on a semi-regular basis for everyone in the game. If not, no one would ever be able to advance at anything since, for some strange reason, karma is the only way you can do that. Just look at those titles again. Guts, Smarts, Motivation, and Right Place/Right Time. Those are all perfectly valid and believable reasons for why a character would gain the experience (in Shadowrun's form of karma) to improve themselves in some fashion. There's no reason it should be limited to players only; that's metagaming. And while, in practice, karma *is* a metagaming tool, they've woven it too much into the game for it to *only* be a metagaming tool. |
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Dec 3 2004, 08:01 AM
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#153
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Beetle Eater Group: Dumpshocked Posts: 4,797 Joined: 3-June 02 From: Oblivion City Member No.: 2,826 |
Yeah, but they're all Roleplaying awards, not just Karma Awards, right?. It just seems dumb to have the GM giving himself such karma. |
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Dec 3 2004, 08:02 AM
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#154
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Immortal Elf Group: Validating Posts: 7,999 Joined: 26-February 02 Member No.: 1,890 |
Why? He's roleplaying, too. He just plays everyone else rather than one specific character.
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Dec 3 2004, 08:02 AM
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#155
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Canon Companion Group: Members Posts: 8,021 Joined: 2-March 03 From: The Morgue, Singapore LTG Member No.: 4,187 |
He could. He'd spent it all on his NPCs.
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Dec 3 2004, 08:03 AM
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#156
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Beetle Eater Group: Dumpshocked Posts: 4,797 Joined: 3-June 02 From: Oblivion City Member No.: 2,826 |
Then the players should decide if he deserves it. And that's the thing, he's deciding what's in character just by playing it; it's kind of impossible for an NPC to be played out of character. This post has been edited by Kanada Ten: Dec 3 2004, 08:05 AM |
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Dec 3 2004, 08:05 AM
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#157
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Immortal Elf Group: Validating Posts: 7,999 Joined: 26-February 02 Member No.: 1,890 |
Why? It's his job to give out the awards. And while, technically, he's not directly awarding himself, that doesn't mean the vast majority of metahumanity in his potential control should be stagnant creations. It's a breathing, living world even if he's not detailing every single one of those lives... but they're all still earning karma every time they do something get into a fight, stand up to someone, take the initaitive to do something important, or are just lucky enough to be in the right place at the right time.
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Dec 3 2004, 12:13 PM
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#158
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Running Target Group: Members Posts: 1,326 Joined: 15-April 02 Member No.: 2,600 |
My problem with this is only that the GM determines the awards, but he's awarding them to characters he controls. To take it point by point: Guts: Can a GM give and NPC a point for being brave when the threat and the response is determined by the GM? And can a statless npc even qualify, since nothing short of plot can affect him? Smarts: Can a GM give an NPC a point for being smart when the GM is the one setting up the situation, and then deciding the best way to handle that situation, and then deciding how it turns out? Motivation: Can an NPC get an award for starting a plotline when thats what the GM does anyway? (Of them all, this one seems to be directed exclusively at players, since it says "Players who drive the storyline forward" and "Characters who start plotlines on their own accord without waiting for the GM". I mean, I've never had an NPC start something without me). Right Place/Right Time: Can an NPC get an award thats based on him being where he needs to be with the correct skill or response when it is the GM that decided where he needs to be, if he is there, what the correct response is and what his response will be? Good Roleplaying specifically mentions players, so I'll leave it. Surprise: To what degree must a GM surprise himself to make this award viable, and can he give it out for an "effective" strategy when he is ultimately the one who decides if it succeeds or fails (esp true with a statless npc, who doesn't even have to roll). Humor and Drama: This one is probably the most applicable, at least for NPCs, since its pretty easy to look around and see if everyone is laughing. Drama might be a harder thing to judge, but the players could say your drama was in, out of, or next to the hiz-ouse (depending on which ones the hep kats are saying these days). I interpret the Awarding Karma section to be meant for players only. Which seems entirely moot in the case of IE's anyway, since they can't use karma to increase stats they don't have. |
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Dec 3 2004, 02:38 PM
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#159
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Immoral Elf Group: Members Posts: 15,247 Joined: 29-March 02 From: Grimy Pete's Bar & Laundromat Member No.: 2,486 |
Why not? I hate to make the comparison, but that has been pretty much a staple in RPGs since the original D&D box set was released. NPCs gain experience at either half the rate of PCs, or at the GM's discretion.
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Dec 3 2004, 02:40 PM
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#160
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Immoral Elf Group: Members Posts: 15,247 Joined: 29-March 02 From: Grimy Pete's Bar & Laundromat Member No.: 2,486 |
As to Karma and IEs ... it isn't necessarily the awarding of Karma now, but the fact that they could have earned it in the past. And relatively easy too.
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Dec 3 2004, 02:50 PM
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#161
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Moving Target Group: Members Posts: 401 Joined: 7-June 02 From: Living with the straw sheep. Member No.: 2,850 |
I understand that...but I think Mercer's point (with which I agree) is more as follows: Since the IEs get to ignore the rules (according to Canon), then there is no need to concern oneself with how much karma they have. The amount of karma an IE has will have no measurable effect upon the game, since they have no stats. (In canon, which is something I disagree with - but if you do give them stats, and hence Karma, you are also deviating from "strict" canon, neh?) Generally, if a thing has no measurable effect, why bother worrying about it? |
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Dec 3 2004, 03:29 PM
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#162
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Immoral Elf Group: Members Posts: 15,247 Joined: 29-March 02 From: Grimy Pete's Bar & Laundromat Member No.: 2,486 |
The original argument was that IEs would not be able to get to such high levels.
The response was that IEs could earn Karma, even during the downtime, and that while they might have quite a few frivilous skills, and they may have wasted Karma here and there on other things (including possibly HoG), they would still have earned more than enough Karma (or however else you want to justify their skill improvement), to be quite highly skilled at certain things, usually including Magic. From there the debate spread to earning specific Karma, and whether NPCs are eligible of receiving Karma, and a few other directions. The core argument is as stated above however, at least IIRC. |
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 Dec 3 2004, 03:58 PM
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#163
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Moving Target Group: Members Posts: 401 Joined: 7-June 02 From: Living with the straw sheep. Member No.: 2,850 |
Perfectly reasonable point of view.
If you live for thousands of years, you'll have plenty of time to do all the things the IEs allegedly have. I just wish there was at least one IE waster - you know a relatively normal person, as opposed to an insanely motivated over-achiever, who spent a couple of thousand years thinking..."Yeah, I could kick his wimpy mortal ass, if I really wanted to...", but never actually got around to doing all of those cool 7331 things. 8) Someone who spent eternity having a life, rather than preparing for the next round of power-hungry politicking. :eek: With that, I shall bow out of the discussion, as I depart for holidays in Rome, as decreed by She Who Must Be Obeyed (Props to whoever gets that reference!). :rotate: [ Spoiler ]
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Dec 3 2004, 04:09 PM
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#164
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Immoral Elf Group: Members Posts: 15,247 Joined: 29-March 02 From: Grimy Pete's Bar & Laundromat Member No.: 2,486 |
Well, not all IEs are as focused as, say Harley or Aina. Some would be slacker on the magical and/or physical in exchange for more learned pastimes (not that Harley would be slack there either ;)). As for just 'having a life', there would have been plenty of that type of thing too. If not, eternity would be intolerable. This falls under the 'various frivolous skills' category.
Then you have the new crop of IEs, like Frosty and that now-dead-guy-whose-name-I-can-never-remember from Tir Tairngire [edit: Glasgian Oakforest], and even Lady Brane Deigh, who haven't yet had the time to be all-powerful. Have a good trip. :) |
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Dec 3 2004, 06:02 PM
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#165
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Manus Celer Dei Group: Dumpshocked Posts: 17,006 Joined: 30-December 02 From: Boston Member No.: 3,802 |
On the one hand, living that long tends to go against being that kind of person. On the other hand, who is to say that there aren't? It's just that they tend not to come up as being particularly important to canon because, well, being important would be out of character. ~J |
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Dec 3 2004, 06:06 PM
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#166
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Moving Target Group: Members Posts: 401 Joined: 7-June 02 From: Living with the straw sheep. Member No.: 2,850 |
Damn you and your logic! :D
[ Spoiler ]
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Dec 3 2004, 07:06 PM
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#167
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Running Target Group: Members Posts: 1,326 Joined: 15-April 02 Member No.: 2,600 |
I just have a problem with the linear progression of the IE's. If you live 30,000 years, you get better every year. This doesn't gel totally with me, its one of those things that makes perfect sense in terms of the game but I think it wouldn't work out like that in real life.
I mean, clearly, I'm not trying to say I'd know what a guy would look like after 30,000 years of life, I'm just saying what I would imagine would be significantly different from the IE's as presented. I'm more interested in coming up with alternative takes on the idea of immortality rather than to debate the specific merits of IE's. They don't have a place in my game, but thats not to imply there is anything wrong with games that do use them. From Darwin's Five Stages of Life to every major religion, Death is the 800-pound gorilla of the human psyche. Its there, its unavoidable. It is arguably the most human thing you will ever do (along with being born and having sex). Except for the realtively small percentage of people currently alive, every single human being who ever existed in the history of the world has died. To my mind, removing this key component would alter every single thing about a person, rather than just make him "better". That isn't to say there wouldn't benefits to living 30,000 years, I'm just saying I don't think the downsides have been sufficiently explored for my tastes. And even if they were, I still don't like the linear progression, because don't think its borne out by real world comparisions. Experience (in life) seems to be more cyclical, with people getting better at some things and worse at others, as well as bound by inherent limitations. They also waste their potential. While you can tie this to the finite nature of our existence, it is a fundamentally human and to change it changes what it means to be human. But thats just my opinion, I could be wrong. |
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Dec 3 2004, 07:09 PM
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#168
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Immortal Elf Group: Validating Posts: 7,999 Joined: 26-February 02 Member No.: 1,890 |
The big problem is that Shadowrun doesn't have rules for skill atrophy. A friend of mine once recommended including skills in the SOTA rules, and I thought that was (at the very least) a good place to start if I were to develop rules for that sort of thing.
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Dec 3 2004, 07:31 PM
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#169
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Manus Celer Dei Group: Dumpshocked Posts: 17,006 Joined: 30-December 02 From: Boston Member No.: 3,802 |
Death is still there, though. Even if it isn't going to be anywhere near as soon, it is just as inevitable.
~J |
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Dec 3 2004, 07:38 PM
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#170
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Running Target Group: Members Posts: 1,408 Joined: 31-January 04 From: Reston VA, USA Member No.: 6,046 |
Excellent point. Attribute atrophy would be an issue as well (After 8 years as a desk jockey I certainly don't have the strength attribute that I used to.) |
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Dec 3 2004, 10:28 PM
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#171
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Running Target Group: Members Posts: 1,326 Joined: 15-April 02 Member No.: 2,600 |
I know, but instead of ignoring the problem and letting IE's (or anyone else) benefit from the oversight, it seems like it would be better to try and fix it. Of course, the discussion about karma totals for a character without stats is largely moot, since I can't use an npc without stats, if I were to use an IE, things like karma pools and skills would have to be taken into account. There is also the old HR addage, that there is a difference between an employee with ten years of experience, and one year ten times. |
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Dec 4 2004, 01:48 AM
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#172
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Beetle Eater Group: Dumpshocked Posts: 4,797 Joined: 3-June 02 From: Oblivion City Member No.: 2,826 |
They put that in a Shadowrun book too... Squid knows where; I sure can't remember. |
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Dec 4 2004, 06:06 PM
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#173
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Running Target Group: Members Posts: 1,326 Joined: 15-April 02 Member No.: 2,600 |
I can't remember either, though you're right, I am pretty sure I got it from an SR book. If I had to bet, I'd say NAGRL, but thats a blind guess.
Edited for this, which I forgot: Demosthenes: I was going to say Rumpole of the Bailey, and then you went ahead and put it in the spoiler tag. I always liked Leo McKern, even though I've only seen him in like three things. (The other two being Ladyhawke and The Prisoner, and the second and next to last Number Two. "Who is Number One?" "That would be telling.") |
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Dec 4 2004, 11:32 PM
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#174
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Dragon Group: Members Posts: 4,065 Joined: 16-January 03 From: Fayetteville, NC Member No.: 3,916 |
Ye gods. I suppose it depends on what degree of realism you want to include.
-Siege |
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Dec 5 2004, 01:07 AM
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#175
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Resident Legionnaire Group: Dumpshocked Posts: 2,136 Joined: 8-August 04 From: Usually Work Member No.: 6,550 |
Has anyone stopped to think that maybe creatures that live for millennia have a different 'world view' than creatures that live for 100 years at most.
Obviously, the IE's and GD's of the world live by a little different set of rules than most of (meta)humanity. Maybe creatures who nature has decided get to live for 20000 years don't accumulate karma at the same rate, or even for the same tasks as a short-lived metahuman. 4th World, 5th World, 6th World whatever. In all of these, Mother Nature rules by the law of equilibrium. |
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