 Intiate Grades ... who's the big gun?, Oddball, but. |
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 Nov 30 2004, 05:42 PM
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#26
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Traumatizing players since 1992  Group: Dumpshocked Posts: 3,282 Joined: 26-February 02 From: Las Vegas, NV Member No.: 220  |
Well, it did say thet Mr dark was "one of, if not the most powerful human mage on earth" which is gigglingly laughable. I don;t remember it ever being said he is on par with Harley.
And for reference, it's explicitly stated in Harlequin that he is in fact a high double digit initiate. |
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Nov 30 2004, 07:03 PM
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#27
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Target Group: Members Posts: 50 Joined: 29-October 04 Member No.: 6,793 |
I think that'd be the sound of the nail being hit on the head. In DotSW doesn't it mention that dragons don't use magic the same way that metahumans do? Further, considering when and how the IEs were created, there is no reason to believe that they'd use magic the same way as other shlubs of the 6th world either. As for Darke, hey man, he had a direct line to the Horrors and a weird-ass never imitated and not yet duplicated group of initiates who were literally sharing blood and becoming a single uber-essense creature with a combined initiate level of 30+ backing him up, not to mention a gestalt, eventually. I'd say that's tough enough to dick with Harlequin, especially if the elf was distracted or otherwise engaged. Nobody is truly immortal. |
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Nov 30 2004, 07:19 PM
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#28
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Immortal Elf Group: Members Posts: 11,410 Joined: 1-October 03 From: Pittsburgh Member No.: 5,670 |
so, toturi. what you're saying is that because IEs and GDs are so incredibly powerful, they've stopped gaining karma after grade 10-15? that's an, uh, interesting idea. you're forgetting one thing, however: SR isn't D&D! in SR, you get karma for good rp, not just for killing monsters. as long as harley stays in character, he should be getting a few karma per month or so. i'll point out that if you hadn't made such a ridiculous argument, i wouldn't have had to make such a ridiculous retort. |
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Nov 30 2004, 07:44 PM
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#29
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Target Group: Members Posts: 34 Joined: 14-November 04 From: Atlanta, GA Member No.: 6,826 |
I recently dove into the Earthdawn (ED) books and was reminded of something. In classic fantasy games, while the dragons were very powerful, player characters did indeed kill them upon reaching certain levels. The Uber dragons of SR are portrayed much weaker (My opinion) in ED than they are in SR.
So, why do we suppose that is? Why is it that adult and great dragons in ED appear to be so much weaker than they are in SR? ***I am drawing this conclusion based upon the different way the books are written. In ED, while their is respect for the greats, of the 4 books I have pursed NONE of them carry the outright fear that the greats are given in SR. |
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Nov 30 2004, 07:47 PM
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#30
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Runner Group: Members Posts: 3,066 Joined: 5-February 03 Member No.: 4,017 |
This brings up a serious question, while he was in a drunken stupor between the two Harley books, was he in excellent roleplaying or horrible? Was his lack of facepaint out of character, or was the depression at the intervening insignificance of his life the perfect indulgence of drama? |
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Nov 30 2004, 07:48 PM
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#31
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Traumatizing players since 1992 Group: Dumpshocked Posts: 3,282 Joined: 26-February 02 From: Las Vegas, NV Member No.: 220 |
That's kind of true, but just to be fair Dragons in most other game systems are complete paper tigers compared to GD's in SR. I mean their karma warping abilities alone will mean you're screwed.
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Nov 30 2004, 08:02 PM
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#32
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Manus Celer Dei Group: Dumpshocked Posts: 17,008 Joined: 30-December 02 From: Boston Member No.: 3,802 |
Dude. Harley has little to no magic to use. It doesn't take a Horror to threaten him like that. ~J |
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Nov 30 2004, 08:08 PM
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#33
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Immoral Elf Group: Members Posts: 15,247 Joined: 29-March 02 From: Grimy Pete's Bar & Laundromat Member No.: 2,486 |
I wonder how much Karma he picked up as Arthur ...
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Nov 30 2004, 08:24 PM
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#34
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Shooting Target Group: Members Posts: 1,512 Joined: 16-August 03 From: Northampton Member No.: 5,499 |
The highest grade iniate i've had in my game was a 9th lvl Physical Adept, but the player severly skimped in other areas, example only three skills above 6 (2 at 7 1 at 8 ). |
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Nov 30 2004, 08:27 PM
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#35
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Immortal Elf Group: Members Posts: 11,410 Joined: 1-October 03 From: Pittsburgh Member No.: 5,670 |
say huh? last time i checked, he was one of the most powerful magicians around. |
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Nov 30 2004, 08:29 PM
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#36
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Runner Group: Members Posts: 3,066 Joined: 5-February 03 Member No.: 4,017 |
I think that was meant as "had" in referencing the downcycle. Really low mana means big effort needed for even a force 1 manabolt.
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Nov 30 2004, 08:30 PM
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#37
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Target Group: Members Posts: 80 Joined: 26-February 02 Member No.: 850 |
Threats, Pg 21 "Darke is a very high-level Initiate whose power rivals, and probably exceeds, the abilities of the strongest mages in the Awakened World." Now, this is the same book that details the Black Lodge having a handful of peopel in the 10 rank level and that the Gestalt's 30 rank is head and shoulders above anything on the planet, so, bumping Darke to a 10 would make sense. -- Johnny Reb |
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Nov 30 2004, 08:39 PM
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#38
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Shooting Target Group: Members Posts: 1,840 Joined: 24-July 02 From: Lubbock, TX Member No.: 3,024 |
Or it could be an editing oversight, since you probably have several different authors submitting portions of the book.
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Nov 30 2004, 08:46 PM
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#39
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Running Target Group: Members Posts: 1,326 Joined: 15-April 02 Member No.: 2,600 |
Well, considering that none of the IE's were played for very long, they probably haven't earned very much karma at all. If I take a two year break from SR and come back to find the campaign has moved along by two years, and I want to play my old character, I'm going to guess my GM will give me about zero points of karma for that downtime (despite the fact that I role-played it effectively. I mean, the character wasn't there, I wasn't there. That's method, baby). To say that a guy has lived for thousands of years and earned karma (even a point a year) during that time doesn't impress me, because it takes no actual effort. If someone did a run a year, playing an IE up from character creation, for 2000, 4000 or 6000 runs; and survived, then talk to me. Personally, I think the idea of statless npcs in GM laziness. And to the entire IE, Great Dragon, high double digit initiative grades, I can only say this:
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Nov 30 2004, 08:48 PM
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#40
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Runner Group: Members Posts: 2,751 Joined: 8-August 03 From: Neighbor of the Beast Member No.: 5,375 |
It also been stated that Talon is one of the most powerful human mages in the 6th world.... Its also been stated that Sam Verner is (was) one of the most powerful human mages in the 6th world.... If your point is that "just b/c someone says it, doesn't make it true." I agree. I don't care how strong Darke is the way of the dark side. A few millenia worth of experience has got to count for something. |
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Nov 30 2004, 09:23 PM
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#41
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Moving Target Group: Members Posts: 152 Joined: 24-October 04 Member No.: 6,785 |
Wouldn't Darke have Potence as well as initiate grade to contribute to his magical power?
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Nov 30 2004, 11:19 PM
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#42
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Karma Police Group: Dumpshocked Posts: 1,358 Joined: 22-July 04 From: Gothenburg, SE Member No.: 6,505 |
If you look to the novels, specificly Beond the Pale, Darke and Harlequin fights in the metaplanes and are fairly matched. This is even though Darke has the power of the Gestalt, a few hundred virgin sacrifices and a mysterious stone called a Locus or something that connects and channels mana lines at his disposal. I would say more but I donŽt know how to make a spoiler tag. Anyway, depending on what type of foci and stuff Harlequin broght with him, thereŽs no telling what their initiate grades are by this example, eccept that they are both very powerful. But IŽd say its very likely that Darke has a VERY inferior initiate grade to Harlequin, but that the resources of a mega corporation like Aztecnology should never be underestimated. And that is what makes them equals in their battles.
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Nov 30 2004, 11:24 PM
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#43
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Runner Group: Members Posts: 2,751 Joined: 8-August 03 From: Neighbor of the Beast Member No.: 5,375 |
I don't think Harly had any foci. He also had to contend with a small horde of lesser Horrors in addition to just Darke.
All things considered my vote for big mage gun goes to Harlequin. Others in the top five would be Aina, Lofwyr, Lung, and Ghostwalker, with the alternate going to Alachia or Alamaise. |
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Nov 30 2004, 11:33 PM
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#44
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Shooting Target Group: Members Posts: 1,512 Joined: 16-August 03 From: Northampton Member No.: 5,499 |
This is very true, hence why in Harlequins Back, Darke has 3 different Threats Lvls depending on whether or not he's in Aztlan or Astral or your bog standard Evil Bad guy. |
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| Guest_Crimsondude 2.0_* |
Nov 30 2004, 11:43 PM
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#45
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Guests |
Shocking. Absolutely, utterly shocking. |
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Dec 1 2004, 02:01 AM
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#46
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Canon Companion Group: Members Posts: 8,021 Joined: 2-March 03 From: The Morgue, Singapore LTG Member No.: 4,187 |
I am saying that it gets really harder to get karma. For example, if you were to run a SRM for Mr Harlequin, he shouldn't get a single Karma. For the simple reason there's simply not enough challenge. What RP is he going to do? Sit in his chateau and juggle? What challenge is that? You give karma to your runners just for hiding, laying low in their safehouses? This isn't DnD, this is just following the rules. You did read p242-244 SR3, didn't you? I'll point out that if you hadn't made such a ridiculous counterargument, I wouldn't have had to make such a ridiculous counter-retort. |
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Dec 1 2004, 02:04 AM
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#47
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Shooting Target Group: Members Posts: 1,840 Joined: 24-July 02 From: Lubbock, TX Member No.: 3,024 |
I guess that's why his ally spirit can turn into a motorcycle. Now we just need some protoculture and a Shadow veritech |
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Dec 1 2004, 02:21 AM
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#48
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Immortal Elf Group: Members Posts: 11,410 Joined: 1-October 03 From: Pittsburgh Member No.: 5,670 |
yes, actually, i do give karma for hiding and laying low in their safehouse, if they do some good role-playing while they're in there. perhaps you should re-read SR3 p242-244. i don't see anything in there about characters not getting karma because a run was too easy. i do see lines in there that say things like " every surviving member of a team gets Karma for staying alive, succeeding at a mission, and for the degree of danger in the mission." so, while harley might not get any karma for 'degree of danger', he certainly gets karma for 'completing the mission' and 'staying alive'. there are also a couple of individual awards that might apply to someone like harley: guts (facing off against horrors isn't for pansies), smarts (harley tricked ehran during harlequin--that takes some doing); motivation (harley's machinations have been the focus of at least two SR modules and one video game), and maybe even 'humor and drama', since he's been in at least one book.
but, in all that, i still don't see anything about not giving a character karma because they're too powerful. for the record, your counter-retort wasn't ridiculous, just erroneous. |
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Dec 1 2004, 02:36 AM
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#49
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Canon Companion Group: Members Posts: 8,021 Joined: 2-March 03 From: The Morgue, Singapore LTG Member No.: 4,187 |
Exactly. So you suppose Mr Harlequinn goes off on an adventure once a week? Oh, I forgot you consider going to the toilet an adventure. Sure then, Mr Harlequinn has a lot of karma then. What qualifies as an adventure to Mr Harlequinn is different from what is an adventure to normal people. An adventure to normal runners is doing laundry, even if the laundromat is in an urban combat zone. So the key is still what qualifies as an adventure. If a run was too easy it aint an adventure. Your argument is erronous. |
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Dec 1 2004, 02:46 AM
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#50
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Immortal Elf Group: Validating Posts: 7,999 Joined: 26-February 02 Member No.: 1,890 |
While it's used as experience, Good Karma is still good karma. Helping an old lady across the street can earn you good karma. It doesn't matter if you're an 8-year-old boyscout or a 20,000-year-old immortal elf.
Believe it or not, shadowrunners aren't the only people in the world who earn Good Karma, and performing criminal acts that put your life on the line isn't the only way to earn it either. I know it's a difficult concept to grasp, but it's true nonetheless. Even if you just want to set it up so that your average, normal person only earns about 1 Good Karma per month... a 20,000-year-old immortal elf has had a lot of months (240,000 to be exact) to stockpile Good Karma. Even if you put it at just one Karma a YEAR, they'll have more karma than you can imagine... even the younger ones born at the end of the Fourth World will have earned in excess of 5,000 Good Karma. Now take a 20,000-year-old immortal elf who has been on many of the the most epic adventures throughout history (including those in the Sixth World -- hell, two of 'em have his name in the title), and chances are he's earned more than a handful of karma in his time. |
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