 Intiate Grades ... who's the big gun?, Oddball, but. |
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 Dec 9 2004, 01:49 AM
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#301
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Moving Target  Group: Members Posts: 152 Joined: 24-October 04 Member No.: 6,785  |
In ED, three IEs were stated in Blood Wood. Oakforest was 12th/11th/10th circle, respectively, in three magician disciplines Alachia was 12th Troubadour and "accomplished" in elementalism and illusion Caimbueul was just mentioned in passing as a wizard and swordmaster adept I think that an interesting thing to point out is that the IEs that were stated were not signifigantly more powerful (holding lower Circles) than say, Kethos Escalanas, and Preystia Tales (mortal elf magicians that served the Elven Court). Not to mention the Heavenherd (which held many humans), the Denairastas Clan, and the "older" Shivalahalas. The Ork Nation of Cara Fahd had a magician that could put a mountain in a bottle singlehandedly. An ork! The point I'm trying to make is that IEs didn't have a monopoly on obscene magical power in the 4th world, and I don't see why they should on the 6th. And in DotSW, it states that GREAT dragons have an initiate Grade of 10 or above, and suggests that some young GDs may have lower than 10. It doesn't make sense for an IE to have six times the magical knowledge of a GD, esp. since they're all younger than the Alamais/Lofwyr/Ghostwalker/Dunkelzahn generation of GDs at least. And I don't think that they would use the benchmark of "10 or above" if they mean 50 to 60. |
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Dec 9 2004, 02:26 AM
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#302
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Immortal Elf Group: Members Posts: 11,410 Joined: 1-October 03 From: Pittsburgh Member No.: 5,670 |
i honestly don't think that the writers put much thought into how long these beings have been around. it just doesn't make any sense--regular humans, with some effort, can reach grade 10+ within their lifetime. IEs and GDs have had many, many human lifetimes during which to do their thing; why in the world would they be only grade 10? this is, to me, another bit of fluff that i've come to completely ignore, just like i ignore the utter insanity of "all guns within a certain class use the same ammo" and "all guns are available in cased or caseless versions". these statements are so far outside the bounds of reality and probability it's not even funny. "GDs are only a little over grade 10" is the same way.
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Dec 9 2004, 02:43 AM
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#303
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Moving Target Group: Members Posts: 384 Joined: 18-August 03 From: North VA Member No.: 5,519 |
Well, that'll teach me not to post to a hot topic and come back sixteen hours later.
Uhm....so, as to my earlier comment, yes, I was being a bit tongue in cheek. I'm very aware of the original quote and its origins, thank you. Merely trying to point out that running around spouting off about IQs was rather silly in the grand scheme of things, but I suppose it's all a moot point now... |
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Dec 9 2004, 02:59 AM
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#304
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Moving Target Group: Members Posts: 152 Joined: 24-October 04 Member No.: 6,785 |
The humans that reach Grade 10 have usually devoted pretty much their whole lives toward accumulating magical power. They also are usually members of a group that is similarly devoted towards nothing but the accumulation of magical power (ie, the Black Lodge and the Blood Mages). Groups like this make it a lot easier to initiate, and keeps the drive for power at a peak. Most of the ancients have other interests besides MagicPower ™. How many decades has Celedyr devoted toward liguistics, rather than magic? How much attention has Alachia devoted to her love of sugared violets, fine wines, music, and gaining the unquestioning adoration of others? How much time has Harlequin devoted toward swordsmanship and upsetting his fellows immortals for his own amuzement? Or Dunkelzahn to his innumerable pet projects? I would think that GDs and IEs measure themselves by a lot more than initiate grades, which is more than can be said of some humans mages. |
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Dec 9 2004, 03:29 AM
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#305
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Immoral Elf Group: Members Posts: 15,247 Joined: 29-March 02 From: Grimy Pete's Bar & Laundromat Member No.: 2,486 |
While it is more than likely true that other interests are involved, stating that the assorted GDs and IEs would not be any more powerful after more than 10,000 years than a human can manage in one lifetime is ludicrous.
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Dec 9 2004, 03:34 AM
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#306
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Immortal Elf Group: Members Posts: 11,410 Joined: 1-October 03 From: Pittsburgh Member No.: 5,670 |
indeed. GDs and IEs may have other ways to measure themselves by, but that doesn't negate the unarguable utility of having 40 or more initiate grades to play with. that's 40 or more metamagics, 40 or more points of masked foci/sustained and quickened spells, 40 or more people who one's shielding can cover, 40 or so more meters that they can run while wallrunning/gliding, and so on.
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| Guest_Crimsondude 2.0_* |
Dec 9 2004, 04:07 AM
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#307
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Guests |
Knocked down? Hm... That's where (albeit, SR) logic starts going out the window as far as I'm concerned. |
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Dec 9 2004, 04:16 AM
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#308
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Moving Target Group: Members Posts: 152 Joined: 24-October 04 Member No.: 6,785 |
Well, naturally the IE would be more skilled. Grade 10 with Sorcery 8 is a lot different than Grade 10 with Sorcery 14+.
And 40 more metamagics vs. Tir na Nog's national magical and military power? Or Saeder-Krup's empire? Or even just the Exolashers or Paladins and Ghosts? And thats assuming there are 40 more meaningfully distinct metamagics that the IE or GD can concieve of (and consider worth learning); giving tupilak the Fear power might be important to our northern shaman friends, but why would an IE want to learn it? Initiation isn't always the most efficient way to increase one's abilities, nor is it the only way to reflect centuries of knowledge. And thats also assuming that Magic users don't have a set potential. Most people can only go so far before that law of diminishing returns kicks in, and all the study and effort no longer yeild signifigant results. |
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Dec 9 2004, 04:33 AM
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#309
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Immoral Elf Group: Members Posts: 15,247 Joined: 29-March 02 From: Grimy Pete's Bar & Laundromat Member No.: 2,486 |
Why are we now comparing individuals to armies?
The law of diminishing returns is reflected in the rules by the ever-increasing Karma cost of improving. Grade10/Sorcery 14 is well with the reach of any dedicated metahuman. These people were elite in the 4th World. Harley was a 15th circle Lightbearer (or whatever he was that included swordsman and wizard); Aina is, IIRC the equivalent level as a Nethermancer (among other things); Alachia is at the top of the game in at least 3 seperate magical traditions ... etc. (I'm not as well-versed in ED as I should be) |
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Dec 9 2004, 05:08 AM
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#310
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Moving Target Group: Members Posts: 152 Joined: 24-October 04 Member No.: 6,785 |
We aren't. We are comparing one avenue of attaining power with another, and raising armies, and governing nations requires a great deal of time and effort which can in turn not be spent on magical study.
I look at Karma as pure game mechanic; it really only exists to put a system to improving PCs. I agree that the purpose of increasing costs are ment to simulate diminishing returns. I don't think either of us wants to start another 6 pages of "do NPCs gain Karma?" But it still doesn't take into account that some individuals are simply not capable of passing a certain level of ability.
I really just picked a random number and then a random higher number. I was kind of hoping no one would call me on that :oops:
I'll admit, I probably not very well versed in SR compared to most people here. If you notice, I really seldom say much about rules questions (or things that don't have ED equivilents in general). I played ED for about 6 or 7 years; I've been playing SR for about 8 months. ;) Lightbears were members of a magical group that fought the Horrors. The only thing tying Harley to them that I'm aware of is him using some powers in SR fiction that are similar to the ones learned by members. He was, as I said before, just mentioned in passing in Blood Wood as a swordmaster/wizard adept. The only thing I every saw about Aina in ED was a picture in the main rulebook captioned "Aina reaches for Immortality," and Yrsgrathe's writeup in Horrors (which talks about an elf, but doesn't give her name). But I don't read the novels... |
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Dec 9 2004, 05:10 AM
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#311
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Running Target Group: Members Posts: 1,028 Joined: 9-November 02 From: The Republic of Vermont Member No.: 3,581 |
Imagine trying to magically attack a Grade 40 Initiate who has 20 Spell Pool dice allocated to Shielding. Good luck getting the 29s on that Manabolt that you need to even make them have to resist it...
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Dec 9 2004, 05:19 AM
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#312
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Immortal Elf Group: Members Posts: 11,410 Joined: 1-October 03 From: Pittsburgh Member No.: 5,670 |
yes, akarenti, but initiation still gives you much, much more power. grade 40, assuming ordeals but no groups, only costs 2,540 karma. even if an IE only earns 10 karma per year, it'd still only take 254 total years to reach that grade. spread out over tens of thousands of years, 254 isn't a whole hell of a lot--in ten thousand years, an IE would spend more time eating food than that. there is absolutely no reason for an IE to not go ahead and pick up 40 or more grades of initiation, and every reason to do so.
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Dec 9 2004, 05:56 AM
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#313
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Moving Target Group: Members Posts: 152 Joined: 24-October 04 Member No.: 6,785 |
The elves are characters in the game, not people playing it. The don't stand around saying "If I get 6 more karma, I can just manage to initiate again if I include an Ordeal. Maybe I should exchange some Cash for Karma to make up the difference." They actually have to take into account the real cost in terms of lifestyle and effort and personal expense. They have personal motivations beyond the next number in sequence. If initiation is something you just "pick up" 40 grades in, then it looses a lot of it's flavor in-game. Learning anywhere near that number of metamagics is incredably difficult, esp. if you do it through research or Astral Quest; and astral quests have the potential to do lasting damage as well. An IE can't turn to another character and say "My magic attribute is [high number], what's yours?" The would think more along the terms of "Am I more powerful than you? By a small amout? By a great amount?" And if they are more powerful than their enimies, what is their motivation to improve? If the IE is weaker, why would he attempt to trump his enemy who already has the advantage in his field of expertise? In either case, what will the enemy be doing while the elf is on his month-long astral quest to learn that new metamagic? Once you reach a certain point, magical power just isn't a factor. |
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Dec 9 2004, 06:05 AM
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#314
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Manus Celer Dei Group: Dumpshocked Posts: 17,006 Joined: 30-December 02 From: Boston Member No.: 3,802 |
If 40 grades of initiation are something you can't just "pick up" in about twelve thousand years, time loses a lot of its flavour in-game.
And why are they continually improving? Because they aren't stronger than their enemies, but the Scourge is far away for now. It's coming back, but they've got the time. Time is, in fact, more or less all they have. And the only way to confront a powerful Named Horror is on its area of expertise. ~J |
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Dec 9 2004, 06:09 AM
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#315
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Moving Target Group: Members Posts: 152 Joined: 24-October 04 Member No.: 6,785 |
They seem to have done pretty well surviving the Scourge in the 2nd and 4th worlds.
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| Guest_Crimsondude 2.0_* |
Dec 9 2004, 06:12 AM
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#316
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Guests |
Okay, I'm just going to go out on a limb and ask-- Why shouldn't IEs and GDs be Grade 40, 50, or 100?
As for 40 metamagics... Well, I've seen a list of more than 40 metamagics created as an expansion of the original six metamagics and the various new ones introduced over the last 15 years. Likewise, you have to consider what might be considered a metamagic now as its equivalent ED power, plus whatever metamagic they will introduce in the future once it's been "discovered." As for the Next Scourge, I'm just curious. You do realize that the next Scourge will be very different than the one in ED due to technology, let alone what the combination of magic and tech will produce for both sides by the time it hits? |
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Dec 9 2004, 06:14 AM
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#317
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Runner Group: Members Posts: 2,751 Joined: 8-August 03 From: Neighbor of the Beast Member No.: 5,375 |
I wouldn't quite say "pretty well." ;)
Either way, none of them were around in the 2nd Age. |
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Dec 9 2004, 06:31 AM
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#318
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Moving Target Group: Members Posts: 152 Joined: 24-October 04 Member No.: 6,785 |
I just don't think of IEs as more powerful than GDs, and more than one GD has been downed by mere mortals. All-wings, THE great dragon of her time, was killed by a solitary obsidiman Warrior adept (with a life span of about 500 years). Two or three were killed by military action. If it were so easy to get all that magic ability, why would the elves and dragons bother doing anything else? If your a Grade 100 initiate, what difference does it make what happens in the world? If it bothers you, you'll just blow it up and make a new one. A Grade 10-20 initiate is fully capable of everything that IEs and GDs have been noted to do in fiction, and a bit besides.
I just don't understand why they have to be grade 50. It's like all the computer RPGs were everything is measured in 100s. Just a bigger number were there's no reason for one. |
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Dec 9 2004, 06:41 AM
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#319
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Immoral Elf Group: Members Posts: 15,247 Joined: 29-March 02 From: Grimy Pete's Bar & Laundromat Member No.: 2,486 |
kevyn668: And I will rebutt by saying that according to several ED gurus here, there has been references to at least some of the currently existing IEs being around in the 2nd Age.
akarenti: I think the problem is more with labelling the GDs with an Initiate Grade of 10-20. That is way too low to be even remotely believable. |
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Dec 9 2004, 06:45 AM
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#320
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Manus Celer Dei Group: Dumpshocked Posts: 17,006 Joined: 30-December 02 From: Boston Member No.: 3,802 |
They hid. They hid in little holes and cowered, and when some of them had their holes broken wide open they performed horrible magic upon themselves, magic that left them in constant pain, just to stay alive. They did not "survive pretty well", they were humiliated, sent running with the weakest squalling human child. I'd say they're going to do whatever they can to keep it from happening again. ~J |
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Dec 9 2004, 07:03 AM
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#321
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Moving Target Group: Members Posts: 152 Joined: 24-October 04 Member No.: 6,785 |
Alachia and Oakforest were the only immortals in Blood Wood. (Oakforest might not have even been aware of his immortality at the time). Alachia's pride told her their magic could withstand the Scourge. And all of Wyrm Wood paid for her arrogance. I think they're going to do everything in their power to keep that from happening again. The Passions of Vasgothia fought the Horrors, and lost. They were, for all intents and purposes, GODS , and they were litterally torn apart and scattered accross the countryside. And these were entities that were at least equal in power to the Totems of SR. Everything that survives a Scourge survives by hiding. Technology just allows for a better standard of living while hiding, and a greater success rate for hiding places. |
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Dec 9 2004, 07:07 AM
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#322
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Resident Legionnaire Group: Dumpshocked Posts: 2,136 Joined: 8-August 04 From: Usually Work Member No.: 6,550 |
Could the body survive long enough to do an astral quest required for initate grade 60?
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Dec 9 2004, 07:16 AM
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#323
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Moving Target Group: Members Posts: 232 Joined: 19-October 04 Member No.: 6,773 |
Also, consider that each ED level is roughly equal to one grade of initiation, With 30 levels of initiation at the height of the last cycle (for a then young immortal), they probably have quite a few more by now.
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Dec 9 2004, 08:02 AM
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#324
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Moving Target Group: Members Posts: 152 Joined: 24-October 04 Member No.: 6,785 |
Circles don't translate well to Grades. Circles show more exponential growth, and the grade system is more linear. Also, a character 10th circle in two disciplines is more often than not weaker than a character 11 or 12th circle in one. Circles 1-4 are more limited than non-initiated SR characters. They can't bond foci until 4th Circle, the magicians can't summon, only 2 disciplines can astrally perceive. Circle 5-8 characters gain most of the abilities of SR magicians and adepts, but some abilities come much later, and some middle circle abilities are off the chart for SR, like the nethermancer spells that allow groups of people (bodies and all) to enter astral space and the like. After that ED magic just gets stupid powerful. Adepts running 30 yards per second, Magicians bottling cities, etc. But ED was High Fantasy. And most characters wouldn't get much beyond Circle 5 or 6. Progress kind of slowed to a crawl after that. This post has been edited by akarenti: Dec 9 2004, 08:05 AM |
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Dec 9 2004, 09:19 AM
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#325
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Running Target Group: Members Posts: 1,326 Joined: 15-April 02 Member No.: 2,600 |
Or, they avoided putting anything down on paper strictly to avoid these kinds of endless what if round robins. We can argue all day what an IE might look like but it doesn't really matter since they were designed to not play on the same field as other characters (which is but one of my problems with them conceptually). Trying to make a fictional character like an IE by the rules of SR doesn't work (for the myriad of reasons stated, most notably that there is no mechanic for forgetting things, all knowledge is purchased and non-perishable). Mathematically, with somewhere between 10 and 30 thousand years of karma earning behind them, one could argue that IE's could be in the low quadruple digit Initiate Grade rather than the high double. My problem (acutally one of my problems, and not even the main problem) with IE's is not how they work-- or don't work-- mechanically, but how they were never designed to. I've never liked the concept of npcs that don't have to play by the same rules as everyone else. I didn't like them in D&D when they were called Elminster and I don't like them in SR when they're called Harlequin. Beyond mechanics (which they were never designed for anyway), I think the main failure of the IE's are as a storytelling mechanic. That is to say, the stories they are designed to tell I don't have any interest in. Outside of a ED/SR crossover game, there's nothing an IE can do in SR story terms that can't be accomplished by a more falliable, more realistic antagonist or benefactor. |
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