 Intiate Grades ... who's the big gun?, Oddball, but. |
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 Dec 1 2004, 03:02 AM
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#51
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Canon Companion  Group: Members Posts: 8,021 Joined: 2-March 03 From: The Morgue, Singapore LTG Member No.: 4,187  |
Epic to normal runners. Just another one of his save the world walk in the parks to him.
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Dec 1 2004, 03:04 AM
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#52
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Manus Celer Dei Group: Dumpshocked Posts: 17,006 Joined: 30-December 02 From: Boston Member No.: 3,802 |
Which is why he gets his ass kicked by the Horrors in Harlequin's Back. Uh-huh, yeah. Just a walk in the park. :please:
~J |
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Dec 1 2004, 03:04 AM
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#53
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Immortal Elf Group: Validating Posts: 7,999 Joined: 26-February 02 Member No.: 1,890 |
Doesn't matter one iota. Unless you want to point to a table in the books that shows Karma awards based upon past earnings. You know, like "If you have earned 1,000 or more Karma, you don't earn any for this adventure. Everyone else earns 10 points worth." Go on, find that table for me.
Oh, and good job of avoiding the rest of what I said. <thumbs up> |
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Dec 1 2004, 03:13 AM
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#54
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Immoral Elf Group: Members Posts: 15,247 Joined: 29-March 02 From: Grimy Pete's Bar & Laundromat Member No.: 2,486 |
I'm not sure what part of 'Completing the Mission' is not understood. There is no proviso that the mission must be a challenge for Karma to be awarded. If the mission is a challenge, then even more Karma is awarded for it's completion.
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Dec 1 2004, 03:53 AM
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#55
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Canon Companion Group: Members Posts: 8,021 Joined: 2-March 03 From: The Morgue, Singapore LTG Member No.: 4,187 |
Simple. All those other things? Those aren't adventures for him. It is an adventure for others. It is not for him. It doesn't matter that he has 1 Karma or a 1 million Karma, if the activity isn't an adventure, then he doesn't get the karma.
This gives the GM the free hand of deciding whether something is an adventure. A normal person steadily gains karma up till a certain age. Imagine you are a baby, everything is an adventure. When you are a kid, going to school is an adventure. But once you hit a certain point, crossing the road is just another daily activity, that doesn't get you any karma. If you are Joe Farmer, you might gain some karma watching the crops grow in a year with lousy weather becuase that's a bloody adventure. If you are Ms Paris Hilton, you might gain some karma for shopping in a Bangkok bazaar(that's adventure; of course Ms Hilton has other adventures but we're not going there). By the way, an adventure has no time limit. And you do not get karma for an uncompleted adventure. Suppose your cosmic GM decides your whole life counts as 1 huge adventure. Well, you might get one huge pay off at the end, but you aren't earning any during the adventure. |
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Dec 1 2004, 03:56 AM
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#56
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Immortal Elf Group: Validating Posts: 7,999 Joined: 26-February 02 Member No.: 1,890 |
You didn't answer my challenge. Find me the rule or table that shows that you don't earn any Karma if you already have a buttload of Karma under your belt. |
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Dec 1 2004, 04:16 AM
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#57
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Canon Companion Group: Members Posts: 8,021 Joined: 2-March 03 From: The Morgue, Singapore LTG Member No.: 4,187 |
There isn't. All I'm saying is that with he having so much Karma and having very high Attributes and skills as a result, it isn't an adventure for him. No adventure, no Karma. He can continue gaining Karma from adventures, I never claimed otherwise.
For me I tie the amount of Karma/Attributes/Skills into the defination of adventure. As a defination, Ultimate NPCs do not roll dice. I see any "encounter" in that there is no need to roll dice as not being an adventure. When Harlequin actually needs to roll, yes, he gets that Karma, but he is always an Ultimate NPC - THE Mr No-Stat, therefore no dice roll ever. Oh, and good job of avoiding the rest of what I said. <thumbs up> |
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Dec 1 2004, 04:21 AM
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#58
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Immortal Elf Group: Validating Posts: 7,999 Joined: 26-February 02 Member No.: 1,890 |
Exactly. It doesn't matter if something qualifies for your definition of an "adventure" or not. It doesn't matter how high your attributes are, how advanced your skills are, or that you succeeded at your task without so much as breaking a sweat -- you still earn karma. There is NO cut-off period for when you stop earning karma, and there's no threshold that stops an experienced person from earning nearly the exact same amount as a total newbie. There is no "did this qualify for toturi's defintion of an adventure?" Karma reward. You're grossly wrong on this. It's that simple. As others (<coughs>) have pointed out, this isn't D&D. You don't have levels. You don't earn experience/karma based upon what level you are. Get over it. |
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Dec 1 2004, 04:31 AM
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#59
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Canon Companion Group: Members Posts: 8,021 Joined: 2-March 03 From: The Morgue, Singapore LTG Member No.: 4,187 |
The very defination for a Karma award is that there needs to be an adventure in the first place. Without an adventure, there can be no Karma award at all. There are no levels, this is not D&D. But
Emphasis mine. No adventure, no Karma. Therefore it is not a question of whether you have high stats or not, but whether you are having an adventure. You can have high stats and if you think going to the grocer's is an adventure, more Karma to you. However, I do not think so. A total newbie swimmer can swim 10m and that's an adventure. What would qualify as an adventure to an Olympic swimmer? If you think that sitting in the toilet is an adventure, and that is equal to everybody, fine. But the way I see it, doing laundry isn't an adventure. |
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Dec 1 2004, 04:34 AM
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#60
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Immortal Elf Group: Validating Posts: 7,999 Joined: 26-February 02 Member No.: 1,890 |
Maybe I'm just not familiar with Shadowrun's definition of "adventure." Maybe you could find that for me. While you're at it, explain all those other karma reward criteria that have jack all to do with any of that.
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Dec 1 2004, 04:37 AM
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#61
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Immoral Elf Group: Members Posts: 15,247 Joined: 29-March 02 From: Grimy Pete's Bar & Laundromat Member No.: 2,486 |
No ...
While Harley might not get any Karma for actually surviving, due to the negligent danger, he still would get it for acheiving the goals. |
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Dec 1 2004, 04:41 AM
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#62
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Canon Companion Group: Members Posts: 8,021 Joined: 2-March 03 From: The Morgue, Singapore LTG Member No.: 4,187 |
First of all, you need to have an adventure. Only by completing that adventure, you go to the Karma awards criteria.
All Karma awards are tied to adventure. Without adventure, no Karma. By Canon, the only thing that is not an adventure is doing your laundry unless the laundromat is in a urban combat zone. |
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Dec 1 2004, 04:45 AM
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#63
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Canon Companion Group: Members Posts: 8,021 Joined: 2-March 03 From: The Morgue, Singapore LTG Member No.: 4,187 |
"In the process" means in the process of the adventure, I would think. Of course, the goal of going to the toilet is usually to piss/shit, but I'd be hesitant to give you karma for acheiving your goal even with the almost non-existant risk. |
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Dec 1 2004, 04:46 AM
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#64
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Beetle Eater Group: Dumpshocked Posts: 4,797 Joined: 3-June 02 From: Oblivion City Member No.: 2,826 |
I pretty much agree with Toturi in that it gets more difficult to earn karma as one becomes more powerful simply becasue one must overcome a challange to do so. For Harlequin most ordinary challanges are the equivilant of doing laundry.
However, I don't think there is a lack of things for Harlequin to find challaning enough to earn karma. It doesn't have to be saving the world, just something equally challanging. |
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Dec 1 2004, 04:49 AM
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#65
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Immortal Elf Group: Validating Posts: 7,999 Joined: 26-February 02 Member No.: 1,890 |
Well there you go. And, once again, even ordinary people who've never been on an adventure in their life still earn karma. Unless you want us to believe that YOU believe that no one ever improves themselves as time goes by (and keeping in mind that, within the game, the only way to improve yourself is with Karma). |
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Dec 1 2004, 04:50 AM
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#66
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Immoral Elf Group: Members Posts: 15,247 Joined: 29-March 02 From: Grimy Pete's Bar & Laundromat Member No.: 2,486 |
It all comes down to what you define as an adventure. If you are stuck in D&D mentality and thinking that an adventure has to be challenging to be an adventure, then so be it.
If the adventure is not challenging, then the character doesn't receive that part of the Karma award. That does not in and of itself mean that the character cannot acheive goals, or have good ideas, or any other way that Karma can be earned. |
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Dec 1 2004, 04:51 AM
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#67
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Target Group: Members Posts: 50 Joined: 29-October 04 Member No.: 6,793 |
Right on, Kanda. Something as simple as convincing a racist that orks are people too can be a challenge that causes someone to look into their own soul and view their personal predjudices, which is an adventure in and of itself (one could argue), especially when the soul-searcher isn't really (meta)human himself, in a literal meaning of the words. Is that an adventure that I'd run as a GM? Probably not; my players tend to like to blow shit up. Could it be one? Oh yeah.
I'd say that just staying sane is adventure enough to earn karma after 8 or 10 thousand years. But I must again go back to my first point that IEs and Dragons break the rules of karma completely by their magical nature and ties to the 4th world. Just my view. |
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Dec 1 2004, 05:05 AM
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#68
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Canon Companion Group: Members Posts: 8,021 Joined: 2-March 03 From: The Morgue, Singapore LTG Member No.: 4,187 |
My point is that an adventure needs to have some value. And the simplest way to measure that is to have challenge.
Ordinary people do go on adventures. A stressful day at the office can be a mini-adventure. Rushing that report for that obnoxious client can be an adventure. For a 5 year old, going to school himself is an adventure. For a 13 year old, his first kiss is an adventure. |
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Dec 1 2004, 05:06 AM
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#69
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Beetle Eater Group: Dumpshocked Posts: 4,797 Joined: 3-June 02 From: Oblivion City Member No.: 2,826 |
Your mistaking threat for challange. A goal achieved that presented no challange the character does not grant karma. Goals such as doing laundry don't normally grant karma awards unless something challanged the occomplishment of that goal - things like having no money, transportaiton and so on present challanges and thus doing laundry might earn karma. Working hard and working the boss for a promotion would earn karma, but getting a raise because you the only human working there wouldn't. [edit]
:notworthy: |
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Dec 1 2004, 05:09 AM
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#70
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Manus Celer Dei Group: Dumpshocked Posts: 17,006 Joined: 30-December 02 From: Boston Member No.: 3,802 |
And I'm willing to bet that in an alien world without magic, with evolving and changing technology and social systems, Harlequin probably managed to average out at absolute minimum one karma point a year.
~J |
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Dec 1 2004, 05:12 AM
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#71
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Moving Target Group: Members Posts: 152 Joined: 24-October 04 Member No.: 6,785 |
Um, why would an immortal (elf, dragon, or otherwise) want to adventure? I mean, what do they really have to gain from running around fighting?
Most of the IEs seem perfectly happy sitting back and running the Tirs, and let their minions do all the actual work. Not to mention that there are probably decade long boughts of apathy (esp. during the downcycle) brought on by the death of people they care about (or at least by the mindnumbing sameness of "mundane" life). So, while they have a few action packed decades here or there, I would think that most of them would spend quite a bit of time just trying to entertain themselves, and keep feelers out so they can maintain their power among the other immortals. Add that to the care that most of them take before involving themselves with anything, and Good Karma would come very, very slowly compared to the average 'runner that expects to be geeked or arrested in less than a year, and thus lives life a little faster. Then factor in all the karma for skills improvements as technology grows, quickenings, learning uber-spells, bargaining with free spirits, improving attributes so you can soak the drain from said uber-spells, and regaining attribute points from damage, disease, or Ascetic Ordeals, creating allies, etc. and I think 10-20 grades doesn't sound too bad. I would also think that most of the IE's would prefer to master the abilities they have before going for more power, which would also slow down their initiations. I mean, once you learn all the techniques known to Elf-kind, and are more powerful than 99.99% of people capable of using magic, I think the brunt of your attention would turn elsewhere (statecraft, for example). That would also explain why Harlequin is as powerful as he is--he hasn't turned the majority of his attention to global politics like his fellows. |
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Dec 1 2004, 05:16 AM
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#72
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Canon Companion Group: Members Posts: 8,021 Joined: 2-March 03 From: The Morgue, Singapore LTG Member No.: 4,187 |
Maybe he got less.... Maybe the rise and fall of the Roman Empire was just one adventure to him, say 20 karma. Maybe the Dark Ages was another adventure, another 20 karma. Renaissance, same 20 karma. so on and so forth.
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Dec 1 2004, 05:20 AM
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#73
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Manus Celer Dei Group: Dumpshocked Posts: 17,006 Joined: 30-December 02 From: Boston Member No.: 3,802 |
And maybe each and every second without easily accessible magic was a 20-karma adventure in and of itself. We're into territory we can't even vaguely begin to have a sensible debate on.
So, anyone think the figure at the beginning of Harlequin's Back is Ysrthgrathe? ~J |
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Dec 1 2004, 05:23 AM
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#74
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Immoral Elf Group: Members Posts: 15,247 Joined: 29-March 02 From: Grimy Pete's Bar & Laundromat Member No.: 2,486 |
No I'm not. I am just not assuming that every adventure needs to have a threat involved. As with the example you quoted from totori, the wage slave could have a stressful day at work ... no real threat, but he could have learned something (possibly earning Karma), and could have got the report in on time, even though it was rushed and stressful (possibly earning Karma), he might have convinced someone to see things his way (possibly earning Karma), all without worrying that someone is going to blow his head off. He probably wouldn't be awarded more than one Karma point ... even if everything on that list happened, but the possibility is still there. |
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Dec 1 2004, 05:30 AM
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#75
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Midnight Toker Group: Members Posts: 7,686 Joined: 4-July 04 From: Zombie Drop Bear Santa's Workshop Member No.: 6,456 |
Why is everyone assuming that it is even possible to earn karma in the downcycle? Hindu religious doctrine aside, there is no solid evidence for the existance of karma in the fifth world.
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