 Feonyx's Question part 4 |
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 Dec 1 2004, 09:27 PM
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#1
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Target  Group: Members Posts: 47 Joined: 13-October 04 Member No.: 6,757  |
Since BBB contains no example I just want to make sure I have this right. I looked around on the boards, but couldn't find the answer.
Shaman Dude (me) Spellcasting Dice 6 Willpower 5 Goon (Target) Willpower 3 Body 3 I cast a Manabolt at Force 3. Are the steps? (p181): 1) Preparation - None. 2) Spell Targeting - No modifiers this time. 3) I roll my Spellcasting Dice against TN 3. I make say 3 successes. 4) Goon tries to resist the Bolt and rolls his 3 Willpower dice against the Force of the spell 3. Lets say he makes 2 successes. Since he has less successes than me he takes the effect. 5) Spell Effect. Bolt hits with M + success so its up to S. Goon needs to roll Body versus the Force or take S. He rolls 3 dice with a target number of the Force 3. With 3 sucesses he stages down once and takes M damage. 6) Drain. Shaman rolls Willpower against the Force 3 divided by 2 rounded up (so 2). He rolls his 5 Willpower Dice against a 2 and gets 4 successes and takes L damage. Is this right? Shaman takes L for dealing M. Feonyx |
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Dec 1 2004, 09:39 PM
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#2
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Running Target Group: Members Posts: 1,428 Joined: 9-June 02 Member No.: 2,860 |
When the drain code is linked to the damage code, it's linked to the original damage code, not the one you get after piling on successes. So the Shaman would be resisting (Force/2)M stun, not (Force/2)S stun.
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Dec 1 2004, 09:49 PM
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#3
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Target Group: Members Posts: 47 Joined: 13-October 04 Member No.: 6,757 |
Awesome. Thanks much :)
Feonyx |
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Dec 1 2004, 10:11 PM
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#4
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Ain Soph Aur Group: Dumpshocked Posts: 3,477 Joined: 26-February 02 From: Montreal, Canada Member No.: 600 |
No. On his resist test, Goon got 2 successes, while mage got 3. So Mage now has 1 net success. The spell needs 2 succeses to stage, just like any other attack. So that manabolt still has a damage code of M. |
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Dec 1 2004, 10:23 PM
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#5
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Target Group: Members Posts: 50 Joined: 29-October 04 Member No.: 6,793 |
Wrong damage code aside, I think you added in a step there. The goon resists with Willpower versus your force of 3, then the spellcasting successes and the Willpower role successes are compared. You netted one success, so the spell takes effect, but does not stage up. Goon takes M damage; he doesn't get a seperate chance to soak the damage with his body rating.
The metaphysics of this is that you are channaling raw mana into his pattern or aura, thus disrupting his spirit. It might manafest as his head exploding like an over-ripe mellon if you score enough successes, but any physical reaction is purely coincedental. In other words, as it has always been said before, frag the mage first. |
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Dec 1 2004, 10:36 PM
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#6
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Target Group: Members Posts: 47 Joined: 13-October 04 Member No.: 6,757 |
Right whoops! Deadeye: It makes sense to me to have both Willpower and then Body. Since you use Willpower to resist it and then oh smeg you took damage you need to see if you can soak it. If it was say Mind Probe you would use Willpower to see if target resists and then since he/she is not taking damage the effect is "Read for success worth of info" rather than soak it. Am I just wrong? Feonyx |
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Dec 1 2004, 10:41 PM
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#7
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Traumatizing players since 1992 Group: Dumpshocked Posts: 3,282 Joined: 26-February 02 From: Las Vegas, NV Member No.: 220 |
There is never a soak roll after the spell resistance roll on any spell other than a Damaging Manipulation if I remember right.
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Dec 1 2004, 10:46 PM
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#8
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Target Group: Members Posts: 50 Joined: 29-October 04 Member No.: 6,793 |
Unless I'm misreading Pg. 183 of the BBB, I'm afraid you're just wrong, Mate.
and
So basically, you added an extra soak roll that doesn't exist. If you look at the description of Elemental manipulations on 196 you'll see that the target resests with body because they are treated as normal ranged combat attacks. Willpower resisted spells, such as Manabolt, "channel destructive magical power into the target...and are resisted by Willpower" pg 191. Frag the mage first. |
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Dec 1 2004, 10:55 PM
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#9
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Target Group: Members Posts: 47 Joined: 13-October 04 Member No.: 6,757 |
Okay Hmm. I just figured you were rolling to see how much the target was effected. If is effected with Damage you treat it like regular damage. I guess since this is "magic" it just auto-hits if you don't have the Will Power to stop it regardless of the amount of Body you have.
So it SHOULD read: Shaman Dude (me) Spellcasting Dice 6 Willpower 5 Goon (Target) Willpower 3 Body 3 I cast a Manabolt at Force 3. Are the steps? (p181): 1) Preparation - None. 2) Spell Targeting - No modifiers this time. 3) I roll my Spellcasting Dice against TN 3. I make say 3 successes. 4) Goon tries to resist the Bolt and rolls his 3 Willpower dice against the Force of the spell 3. Lets say he makes 2 successes. Since he has less successes than me he takes the effect, but since it is only 1 success there is no stage up. 5) Spell Effect. Goon takes M damage. 6) Drain. Shaman rolls Willpower against the Force 3 divided by 2 rounded up (so 2). He rolls his 5 Willpower Dice against a 2 and gets 4 successes and takes L damage. Shaman hits for M takes L. Feonyx |
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Dec 1 2004, 10:59 PM
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#10
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King of the Hobos Group: Dumpshocked Posts: 2,117 Joined: 26-February 02 Member No.: 127 |
You know, descriptive thread titles are your friend. :)
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Dec 1 2004, 11:14 PM
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#11
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Running Target Group: Members Posts: 1,028 Joined: 9-November 02 From: The Republic of Vermont Member No.: 3,581 |
You also have Spell Pool, equal to (Magic + Willpower + Intelligence)/3, which you can add to either the casting test or the Drain soaking test, or hold in reserve for other uses (spell defense, etc.).
You should probably declare a Damage Level as well as a Force.
I can't tell from the example whether you know this or not, so excuse me if I'm telling you things you already know, but: Manabolt is a variable damage level spell. It starts at whatever damage level you declare it to start at (the balancing factor being that you have to resist the Drain at the same level).
Drain Power rounds down, like most things, so the base Drain Power for a Force 3 Manabolt is 1. But the minimum TN is 2, so you're still rolling against 2s. Right answer, wrong reason. It doesn't matter here, but would if you were throwing around Force 5 Manabolts (base Drain Power 2, not 3).
If you're casting a 3M Manabolt, your Drain is 2M Stun, and stages down one level per two successes. Getting four successes will stage it down to nothing.
Shaman hits for M, if that's what you declared you were casting at, and takes nothing. |
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Dec 1 2004, 11:44 PM
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#12
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Target Group: Members Posts: 47 Joined: 13-October 04 Member No.: 6,757 |
Awesome... thanks so much for clearing it up ;)
Feonyx |
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Dec 2 2004, 01:03 AM
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#13
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Moving Target Group: Members Posts: 942 Joined: 13-May 04 Member No.: 6,323 |
Just to give another example, since you didn't use spell pool, here's how it runs if the Shaman is using his pool. Assume the shaman has a spell pool of 6, sorcery 6, and a willpower of 6. He knows Force 5 Manabolt, and wants to shoot at the Body 12 Willpower 3 Troll who's wearing security armour (which is a good target for this spell, since Body and Armour don't matter against Manabolt).
Shaman decides to set the damage level at Serious (he could chose light, medium, serious, or deadly) and use Force 5 (he could cast at a lower force if he wanted to, but the drain for force 5 is the same as the drain for force 1, so he'll shoot at force 5). 1) Shaman declairs he's casting Force 5 Serious Manabolt at the troll, using a complex action to do so, and decideds to throw in 4 pool dice in to the casting attempt (he could use up to 6, his sorcery skill, but he wants to save some to avoid drain). 2) Shaman rolls his 10 dice against a target number of 3, the troll's willpower, getting 6 successes. 3) The troll rolls his willpower of 3 against the force of the spell, 5, attempting to resist he spell, and gets 1 success. 4) The spell is cast with 5 net successes (6 from the shaman's roll, minus 1 from the troll). It stages up from Serious to Deadly, and does 1 point of overflow damage. Troll falls over with a killer migrane. 5) The shaman resists drain by rolling his willpower, 6, plus the 2 left over dice in his pool, so 8 dice in total. The drain code is half, rounding down, the force of the spell, at the damage level of the spell, in stun damage, so 2S stun. With 8 dice against a target number of 2 the shaman nets 6 successes, and takes no drain (if he'd rolled 5, he'd take a light stun wound). And that is why Force 5 Manabolt is such a useful spell. Force 6 Stunbolt is also useful... same drain code, but twice as hard to resist, and if they're unconcious, you can kill them easy enough later. If this had been Powerbolt, the troll would resist with body, and the target number would also be body, so that wouldn't have been a good idea (plus the drain code would be nastier). JaronK |
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Dec 2 2004, 01:33 AM
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#14
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Running Target Group: Members Posts: 1,133 Joined: 3-October 04 Member No.: 6,722 |
And for the record, this is why most mages pack both - the manabolt is great for most mundane targets who favour their body over their willpower, whilst the average (note that I did say average) spellslinger, decker or other intellectual type will have a significantly higher will than body and so you will benefit from the lower target number of their body (and if you're zapping a fellow spellworm, you soooo need all the successes you can get :) ) |
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Dec 2 2004, 01:40 AM
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#15
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Beetle Eater Group: Dumpshocked Posts: 4,797 Joined: 3-June 02 From: Oblivion City Member No.: 2,826 |
I love examples! Can I do one?
Jaque Lock the Warlock rounds a corner and finds himself face to face with a security guard headed the other way. After a turn passes due to their failed surprise test, Jaque manages to win initiative and instinctively casts Manabolt at the guard. He settles on Force 4 Moderate for this measly human, and, knowing that most guards will play dead after a hit like that, he allocates 3 of his 6 Spell Pool. Rolling his 6 Sorcery dice plus 3 Spell Pool against a target number of 3, Jaque garners 5 successes. The guard meanwhile rolls his Willpower of 3 against a TN of 4 (the spell's Force) amazingly netting 3 successes. Normally, the guard would still take a Serious Wound, but this lucky peon is under Spell Defense from a near-by mage hidden under an Invisibility spell. The mage had allocated 4 dice to the guard and rolls them against the spell's Force plus two because he is sustaining the Invisibility. With heaps of luck, 2 more successes from Spell Defense are added to the guard's 3 successes, making a total of 5 successes. That means poor Jaque's Manabolt failed to achieve a single net success and thus failed to affect the guard at all. Resiting the 2M Drain is a snap with his 6 Willpower and 1 more die from Spell Pool staging it down easily. |
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Dec 2 2004, 02:10 AM
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#16
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Running Target Group: Members Posts: 1,428 Joined: 9-June 02 Member No.: 2,860 |
For targets vulnerable to power bolt, I generally just pack a heavy pistol (or assault rifle, as circumstances allow). It spares spell points for useful spells like Mind Probe and non-exclusive Improved Invisibility. Not that I'm having flashbacks to a couple of Fridays ago and, like, mages with certain shortcomings in their spell book table of contents or anything. |
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Dec 2 2004, 02:20 AM
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#17
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Beetle Eater Group: Dumpshocked Posts: 4,797 Joined: 3-June 02 From: Oblivion City Member No.: 2,826 |
Powerbolt is good because it can be used against inanimate objects (even if one must two-fold overcome OR).
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Dec 2 2004, 02:22 AM
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#18
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Immortal Elf Group: Validating Posts: 7,999 Joined: 26-February 02 Member No.: 1,890 |
Yeah, but that's the point. A 9M Heavy Pistol stands a way better chance of doing damage than even a Force 6 Powerbolt against a lot of targets for that very reason. It's also cheaper (6 Spell Points are the equivalence of 150,000 nuyen during character creation) and doesn't cause Drain to boot... and you can you take two shots per turn.
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Dec 2 2004, 02:27 AM
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#19
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Beetle Eater Group: Dumpshocked Posts: 4,797 Joined: 3-June 02 From: Oblivion City Member No.: 2,826 |
But a 9M Heavy Pistol requires a Pistols skill and doesn't turn a catwalk into a scrapwalk.
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Dec 2 2004, 02:28 AM
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#20
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Immortal Elf Group: Validating Posts: 7,999 Joined: 26-February 02 Member No.: 1,890 |
Most magician's working in the shadows will have at least one Ranged Combat Skill, so that's not exactly a limiting factor. As for the catwalk bit, there's plenty of alternatives, most of which stand a better chance of succeeding anyway.
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Dec 2 2004, 09:35 PM
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#21
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Target Group: Members Posts: 13 Joined: 24-May 04 Member No.: 6,355 |
The LOS range w/o target mods alone makes the powerbolt my friend over the pistol, personally..
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Dec 2 2004, 10:03 PM
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#22
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Immortal Elf Group: Validating Posts: 7,999 Joined: 26-February 02 Member No.: 1,890 |
You mean that base TN of 2 (with Smartlink) or 3 (with laser sight) vs. the TN of [Body or OR]? Yeah, you beat out the pistol there, too. ;)
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Dec 3 2004, 12:08 AM
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#23
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Immoral Elf Group: Members Posts: 15,247 Joined: 29-March 02 From: Grimy Pete's Bar & Laundromat Member No.: 2,486 |
I think he's refering to range penalties. While they can be eliminated by tech, a pistol still has a range limit, which is (or at least can be) quite a bit shorter than LOS.
That being said ... 'It's a tool box. You take out the right tool for the job.'* * Paraphrased, because I don't recall the exact wording. :D |
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Dec 3 2004, 01:08 AM
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#24
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Immortal Elf Group: Validating Posts: 7,999 Joined: 26-February 02 Member No.: 1,890 |
Yeah, but even at long range, you still stand a better shot of hurting just about anything... not just because of the Power of the shot, but because of the TN. I mean, even a TN of 6 (a well-built human target) is on the same par as Moderate Range without any targeting system whatsoever; throw in a smartlink and you're at TN 4 to his 6.
About the only thing the spell trumps is armor penetration... and that's only because it ignores it. |
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