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> Gun Crime in Europe
FlakJacket
post Dec 5 2004, 03:11 AM
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I'm looking for a little information on how widespread and common firearms related offences are in various different countries from the respective board members. Already know about the UK obviously, and American cultural imperialsim has the US covered ;), what what about Europe? Know pretty much nothing about that. How widespread are illegal firearms- are they easy to get, are they used frequently, what's the police's reaction etc.
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mmu1
post Dec 5 2004, 05:58 AM
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QUOTE (FlakJacket @ Dec 4 2004, 10:11 PM)
I'm looking for a little information on how widespread and common firearms related offences are in various different countries from the respective board members. Already know about the UK obviously, and American cultural imperialsim has the US covered ;), what what about Europe? Know pretty much nothing about that. How widespread are illegal firearms- are they easy to get, are they used frequently, what's the police's reaction etc.

I don't know anything about Western Europe... In Eastern Europe, the gun laws are usually quite restrictive, but getting illegal Soviet-block weapons is rather easy.

In Poland, after the fall of the Iron Curtain, the country was flooded with Russians (or former USSR citizens, to be more politicly correct) coming over to trade - selling clothing, pirated CDs, portable consumer goods and small appliances etc., taking advantage of the exchange rate between the Polish currency and the Ruble (while it was laughably weak compared to the $, it was strong compared to that of our Eastern neighbors). This usually took place in big open-air markets, using portable stalls or campers.

An uncle of mine accidentally ended up being offered an AK-74 and a good deal on ammunition at one of those.

All kinds of stuff (including some pretty heavy hardware) could also be bought off of the Soviet soldiers manning the various military bases that were being dismantled as the troops were finally being moved out.

That's how thigns stood as of the early to mid 90's, anyway...
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Austere Emancipa...
post Dec 5 2004, 01:33 PM
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In Finland: Strict laws, very strict for anything but hunting weapons, and the police will immediately intervene if they think you might have a firearm anywhere near a public area. Getting illegal weapons is, I would assume, quite difficult, but organized crime (incl. some biker gangs, etc) certainly has them and anyone with some contacts and money should be able to get them.

[Edit]Should probably mention that carrying weapons (as opposed to transporting them) in public is never legal. There is no license in Finland that would allow a civilian to carry a (concealed or unconcealed) firearm in public.[/Edit]

The Russian border is about as well watched as borders get between two nations not at war, but smuggling constantly happens. Heavier weaponry is very rare, but organized crime is known to use a few LAWs and hand grenades in settling grievances. Unregistered (old) firearms are common. Around 1 in 4 households has a gun, mostly bolt action hunting rifles or shotguns.

In 1997, there were 0.87 gun homicides per 100,000 people (44 total) in Finland according to UN statistics. Most "gun crime" statistics seem to include suicides by firearms (which is not a crime, but extremely common in Finland), and the rest only seem to include homicides with guns.

This post has been edited by Austere Emancipator: Dec 5 2004, 05:37 PM
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Snow_Fox
post Dec 5 2004, 04:20 PM
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The case that just finished in Leeds pretty much shows how little guncrime is in England.
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Austere Emancipa...
post Dec 5 2004, 04:38 PM
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You can find tables like this easily through Google. They might be of some use, although most are skewed in one direction or another, and the data used are often badly out of date and not necessarily comparable.
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MYST1C
post Dec 5 2004, 05:30 PM
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Firearms laws are very strict in Germany.
You can only possess semi-automatic handguns, rifles and shotguns - provided you are a hunter, member of a shooters club or have a job that requires armament (e.g. bodyguard).
Ownership permissions are given by the police after a background and need check (if you have ever commited a crime - forget about guns!).
All guns must be registered with the police.
Permissions come in two kinds:
a) Waffenbesitzkarte - you may own one or more firearms, store them at home, use them while hunting or on shooting ranges and transport them unloaded between these locations.
b) Waffenschein - you may own firearms and carry them loaded with you (this type of permission is rare).

Committing a crime while carrying a gun (whether it was used or not) automatically results in more severe punishment.
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Voran
post Dec 5 2004, 05:49 PM
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*Sigh* this kinda stuff makes me a little sad about the country I live in. Hell, the neighborhood I live in, and I'm just in downtown Honolulu.
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Siege
post Dec 5 2004, 06:18 PM
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And we wonder why the rest of the world thinks we're just a little crazy.

Ah well - the Right to Bear Arms is just one of our little quirks.

-Siege
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Drain Brain
post Dec 5 2004, 06:42 PM
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And yet I seem to recall hearing of the little town in Texas or something where there are so many guns on so many people that crime of any sort is very rare - because anybody might shoot you... love to see an old biddy with a sixgun under her shawl ;)

Makes sense, though, when you think about it - a law (like to forbid the carriage of firearms) will affect only the law abiding, not the lawless, and so perpetuates the trouble. In a relative state, where all are equally heeled, protection of oneself and one's property is far more feasible - and 50% of the schmucks that get killed will be the crooks! Sounds better to me...
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Solstice
post Dec 5 2004, 07:08 PM
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Ok i've edited my personal view out of my post in an effort to keep this thread from becoming a gun control debate.


But pleaasssseeee I beg:


We have had this discussion more than one previously and it leads to nothing but bitter, bitter devisiveness. So lets end this now. You can find whatever stats you want to find depending on what sites you go to. But if you look at peer reviewed scientific journals you will see that I am correct. But please just go Google your stats for the side you believe in and don't bring this up for debate again.

Please let this tread die....let us not discuss politics or religion because contrary to what I may say, I do like most of you and it's not worth the bitter debates things like this engender. :(
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Johnny the Bull
post Dec 5 2004, 08:21 PM
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QUOTE (Solstice)
Gun laws don't stop criminals from getting guns...by definition they are criminals, they don't follow laws. But if they think someone might be armed and could resist, they will probably think twice about commiting a crime where they could easily be shot. If, God forbid, firearms were outlawed as they were in other socialist contries you don't see any actual decrease in crime....they just continue using a $100 Derringer because they know every law abider is easy pickings.

In the US perhaps, where there are so many guns available and where a ban wouldn't deal with the guns already in circulation. However, in Western Europe its bloody hard (comparatively) to get a gun legal or no. There the ban works because basically any gun will be automatically confiscated.
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Austere Emancipa...
post Dec 5 2004, 08:33 PM
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Let's try not to discuss how these things "should" be, and instead concentrate on how they are, eh? There's no reason to kill this thread, because this thread is not about how well gun control works or what people happen to think about the 2nd Amendment or about any other crap of that nature. This is a thread about the gun crime (and gun laws) of European countries.
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Solstice
post Dec 5 2004, 08:37 PM
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ok fine. In a gesture of good faith I'll use my university resources to compile some information on the subject. However, there shall be NO comments as to the pros and/or cons of gun control policies. It will be like a good news show, we report, you decide and keep it in your pants.
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Kagetenshi
post Dec 5 2004, 08:39 PM
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And is also a perfect time to use Private Messages. Seriously, don't report here, it won't end well.

~J
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Solstice
post Dec 5 2004, 08:53 PM
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ok whoever wants the information that I'm digging up just PM me and I"ll send it thanks.
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Fortune
post Dec 6 2004, 01:32 AM
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IIRC, there are a large number of guns (probably of the assault rifle variety) in private Swiss hands. I seem to recall that National Service is manditory, with an addendum that the individual must then subsequently keep the rifle he is issued on hand (and in good order) after he leaves the service.
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Kagetenshi
post Dec 6 2004, 01:41 AM
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Nope, none (or very few) of them are private hands. Every able-bodied male between 18 and 34 is conscripted into the army, and they keep their weapons and uniforms in their homes; such weapons are still property of the Swiss military.

~J
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FlakJacket
post Dec 6 2004, 01:59 AM
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Pedant much? :)
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Kagetenshi
post Dec 6 2004, 03:10 AM
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They are most explicitly not private hands. They are military personnel in possession of military weapons, not civilians owning guns of their own. There is a big difference.

~J
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Fortune
post Dec 6 2004, 03:56 AM
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I did not say they were privately owned. I stated that they were in private hands, as opposed to being locked away in an armory.

I do recall reading in a couple of places that these weapons are kept after the individual leaves the service.
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Kagetenshi
post Dec 6 2004, 04:44 AM
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The latter is possible. The former is incorrect. A soldier is not "private hands", nor is he or she a private citizen or a civilian.

~J
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Fortune
post Dec 6 2004, 05:25 AM
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You are arguing semantics. The weapon is kept in the soldier's possesion, instead of an armory, hence my use of private hands.

To be correct, maybe I should have included corporal and sergeant hands? :D

My initial point really was the latter statement however.

Besides, if the latter is correct, then the weapons are in fact in private hands. ;)
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Kagetenshi
post Dec 6 2004, 05:29 AM
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Not unless they're carried at all times ;)

~J
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hobgoblin
post Dec 6 2004, 10:58 PM
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there is a similar system in work here in norway. a large number of people are part of the "home guard" (most direct translation of its name i can think of). basicly everyone have a ag3 (local variant on the h&k g3 i think it is) at home. lately there have been a lot of talk about this tho as there have been some shooting incidents based on these guns, prompting a discussion about how to keep them under control so that people dont miss-use them while still haveing them out there for when they are needed (i think they came up with a locking device that you insert where the magazine goes and locked in place. key stored with the group leader or something like that). the heavyer stuff (machine guns and similar weapons) is under lock and key in depots around the contry.

i can think about maybe 1 shooting in the last year (happend not to long ago) that was not crime related (we have and some rather nasty robberys happening lately tho. with smgs or something like that in use by the criminals. very organized btw) and it was a open argument between a ex-couple where the man shot the woman and then him self.

if a weapon is used in a crime its mostly a knife or similar sharp object (there was a strange event up north where the flight crew got attecked by a person useing an axe. local flight with a small aircraft so no proper door into the cabin and no metal detector or seach for and luggage. security have been beefed after it happend) and then its very rare that someone actualy gets hurt or killed.
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hyzmarca
post Dec 6 2004, 11:27 PM
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QUOTE (Kagetenshi)
The latter is possible. The former is incorrect. A soldier is not "private hands", nor is he or she a private citizen or a civilian.

~J

By that logic there are very few weapons in privite hands in the US. Most are owned by soldiers. Federal law makes every male between the ages of 18-45 members of the milita of their State.
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