 Elementals, Wastes of Nuyen? |
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 Dec 5 2004, 11:28 AM
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#1
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Target  Group: Members Posts: 77 Joined: 5-December 04 Member No.: 6,869  |
Something that's been bugging me about Shadowrun is Elementals for Mages. To me they seem prohibitively expensive. If you try to conjure a force six spirit with six levels in Conjuring. You'll roll about one service from it, and it'll cost you a cool $6,000 nuyen. You can use one service from it and then it's gone forever.
Basically a $6K grenade. Even if you lower it to Force four it's still alot less powerful and you'll only get an extra one or two services out of it. So what's the big deal with them? Why would you want to spend the time and energy trying to summon up these cash guzzlers? One theory I have is that with the Aid Sorcery service, after the Spirit is reduced to 0 and vanishes, you can recall the spirit with an exclusive complex action and have it go back to Aiding Sorcery without expending another service. This would make it much much more useful. I could see summoning up some force two and three elementals to get those few dice out of them for a whole run (and not just a single spell), and having different types of elementals bound for different spells. Is that how it works, or does it take a whole new service after it gets reduced to 0 and gets Recalled to get your Elemental Aiding Sorcery again? Is there something else I'm missing? Something I'm not getting? Please let me know. Convince me that Elementals are a good investment for a SR Team and not a waste of nuyen. |
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Dec 5 2004, 12:23 PM
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#2
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Immoral Elf Group: Members Posts: 15,247 Joined: 29-March 02 From: Grimy Pete's Bar & Laundromat Member No.: 2,486 |
Using Enchanting to create your own Conjuring Materials greatly reduces the costs involved.
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Dec 5 2004, 02:52 PM
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#3
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Target Group: Members Posts: 8 Joined: 18-October 04 Member No.: 6,770 |
Permanent circles are a big help too. They cost a bit more, but if you summon like...6 elementals at a time, it's already more than paid for itself versus the cost of summoning them all individually.
Then you get to do it all again after the services are used up. Unless you're on the move...then well, it already more than paid for itself yesterday, so you're still ahead. |
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Dec 5 2004, 03:05 PM
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#4
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Canon Companion Group: Members Posts: 8,021 Joined: 2-March 03 From: The Morgue, Singapore LTG Member No.: 4,187 |
Wait till you initiate... Great Form Elementals on stand by are a surefire tactic of cleaning house.
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Dec 5 2004, 03:10 PM
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#5
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Runner Group: Members Posts: 3,314 Joined: 26-February 02 From: Lisbon, Cidade do Pecado Member No.: 185 |
Enchanting and using permanent Hermetic Circles are particularly useful techniques for lowering the cost of Elementals. Having a nice Negotiation skill rating and friendly talismonger contacts also helps.
Also note that Force 5+ Elementals, given their inherent physical Powers and the rules for Immunity to Normal Weapons in particular, are pretty good allies to have on your side in a firefight. |
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Dec 5 2004, 03:26 PM
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#6
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Runner Group: Members Posts: 2,598 Joined: 15-March 03 From: Hong Kong Member No.: 4,253 |
The way I always looked at it was that thy were cheaper that hospital time. If you are at a serious wound and being surrounded, having 6 force 6 elementals pop up and cleaning house will really help out. So most of my elemenals are really saved 'for a rainy day. IIRC you can call all your elementals with complex action, so if you are a 'fast mage' you can call them with action one, and tell them to start the killin' with action two.
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Dec 5 2004, 03:56 PM
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#7
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Prime Runner Group: Members Posts: 3,577 Joined: 26-February 02 From: Gwynedd Valley PA Member No.: 1,221 |
I prefer shamanistic characters but the elements are "expensive" but useful. Usually I've only had them at level 4 and used them for spell support or their secondary effects-like having a wall of flame materialize inside a building can cause all sorts of nasty surprises.
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Dec 5 2004, 04:30 PM
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#8
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Running Target Group: Members Posts: 1,428 Joined: 9-June 02 Member No.: 2,860 |
Can't you attempt to get more services out of an Elemental without spending materials? Crap, I don't even know what the term is to look it up in SR3 or MitS. Rebinding?
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Dec 5 2004, 04:37 PM
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#9
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Immortal Elf Group: Validating Posts: 7,999 Joined: 26-February 02 Member No.: 1,890 |
No, you need more material components for the additional summonings, too.
As Fortune said, but got slightly wrong, all you need is a decent Talismongering skill and you can produce all the conjuring materials you want for next to nothing. You can either go out and harvest your own raw materials, or just buy the cheaper raw or refined materials (such as Herbal materials) from a Talismonger. Once you got 'em, it's just a matter of a little time to change them into Conjuring Materials. If you do it during your downtime, you can have a stockpile of 'em in no time. |
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Dec 5 2004, 05:24 PM
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#10
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Immoral Elf Group: Members Posts: 15,247 Joined: 29-March 02 From: Grimy Pete's Bar & Laundromat Member No.: 2,486 |
D'oh ... I knew that too! :oops:
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Dec 5 2004, 06:17 PM
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#11
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Midnight Toker Group: Members Posts: 7,686 Joined: 4-July 04 From: Zombie Drop Bear Santa's Workshop Member No.: 6,456 |
Elementals have to avantage that that you can send them to perform a service half way across the world while you remain in the comfort. Want someone dead, just summon a fire elemental and command it to find and engulf your target untill he is dead. That's only two services. Grenades and guided missiles can't do that.
If you like the more hand-on aproach, try channeling a high force great-form elemental while under the influance of Spirit Strength. Your stat bonuses will make the initiate adept and the wired Sammy cry. |
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Dec 5 2004, 06:39 PM
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#12
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Moving Target Group: Members Posts: 424 Joined: 11-May 02 From: Marauding the mighty North Saskatchewan Member No.: 2,720 |
Elementals can also help with spell research, making foci and ritual magic. In each of these cases the money spent on the elemental probably more than makes up for guaranteeing sucesses - especailly when making foci, because if you get no sucesses, you still use up that chunk of very difficult to get dragonscale/orichalcum/vampire dust/drop of harlequin blood in the process.
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Dec 5 2004, 08:17 PM
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#13
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Target Group: Members Posts: 77 Joined: 5-December 04 Member No.: 6,869 |
I suppose refining your own materials would save a good deal of money. How much do you think a Talismonger would sell unrefined summoning materials for? About $350 a unit? It not too much and not quit half (Unrefined summoning materials make $500 worth when refined).
Also I suppose if you're just going to use it for Aid Sorcery, basically a glorified Expendable Spell Focus foci, it's cheaper per level than an actual Expendable Foci. And you get a chance that it has more than one use. Also a chance that it goes crazy and eats your face during summoning. |
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Dec 5 2004, 08:43 PM
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#14
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Decker on the Threshold Group: Dumpshocked Posts: 2,922 Joined: 14-March 04 Member No.: 6,156 |
Look at Magic in the Shadows. Raw herbal or iron-based enchanting materials cost 50 :nuyen: a pop; tin and lead 30 a pop. Refined versions cost twice as much, and radicals (used for foci and orichalcum) twice that again. Generally the only time you don't want to buy pre-refined units are if you're looking to get gold radicals for orichalcum (gold costs 10,000 raw, 20,000 refined and 40,000 radical); everything else is fairly cheap to get pre-refined or radical.
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Dec 5 2004, 08:45 PM
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#15
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Immortal Elf Group: Validating Posts: 7,999 Joined: 26-February 02 Member No.: 1,890 |
"Unrefined summoning materisl" are Refined Materials. "Unrefined refined materials" are Raw Materials. Both are listed in the back of MitS, and it doesn't matter one iota which type you use -- the process for creating Conjuring Materials works with any material.
Raw Herbal or Iron Materials are 50 nuyen a unit, and Refined units of the same are 100 nuyen a unit. Tin and Lead are even cheaper at 30/60 a unit. Once you have a bunch, each unit can be transformed into 500-nuyen worth of any type of ritual material (including Elemental Conjuring Materials) by making a Talismongering (4) Test with a base time of 24 hours. Each success divides that time. In otherwords, anyone with Talismongering 6 can turn a 60 nuyen investment into a 500 nuyen investment every 8 hours. That's 55-nuyen an hour, just FYI. If you have an appropriate Comlimentary Skill, it'll add 1 or 2 successes on top of that each time, lowering the time to 4.8 to 6 hours a go. Thus my suggestion to just do it during downtime. After a while of doing that, you'll have all the materials you'll ever need... especially if you have a reasonable amount of downtime in between runs (a month or so). |
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Dec 5 2004, 08:46 PM
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#16
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Moving Target Group: Members Posts: 665 Joined: 20-November 03 Member No.: 5,834 |
This leads to an interesting question. If materials are easily made for almost nothing, why do they cost so much to buy?
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Dec 5 2004, 08:47 PM
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#17
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Immortal Elf Group: Validating Posts: 7,999 Joined: 26-February 02 Member No.: 1,890 |
Because prices for magic, software, and cyberware (and a few other things) are absolutely idiotic.
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Dec 5 2004, 08:50 PM
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#18
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Manus Celer Dei Group: Dumpshocked Posts: 17,011 Joined: 30-December 02 From: Boston Member No.: 3,802 |
I personally think that the rules for creating magical gear and software are the idiotic parts, but yeah, there's idiocy in there.
~J |
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Dec 5 2004, 08:51 PM
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#19
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Running Target Group: Members Posts: 1,353 Joined: 5-June 02 Member No.: 2,840 |
Profit. To give a real-world example, I'm pretty sure that the average mass-printed book has a per-unit cost of a few cents (to print it), but look at the retail price for each one at Borders. Seems fairly likely it works the same way for magical materials. |
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Dec 5 2004, 09:00 PM
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#20
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Decker on the Threshold Group: Dumpshocked Posts: 2,922 Joined: 14-March 04 Member No.: 6,156 |
Even moreso because they can't be mass-produced. Each unit has to be hand-crafted by a specialist, and so the pricing guides tend to look like what people charge for works of art rather than for mass-produced goods.
The hardware/software stuff that deckers have to deal with... I honestly can't find any reason for that other than balance. Especially annoying is how the vast majority of the "hardware" costs are from *software*; an MPCP's software, for ecample, costs anywhere from 25 to 130+ times more than its hardware. It's like decks are actually made by spending thousands of man-hours carefully wiring up pieces of string. |
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Dec 5 2004, 09:01 PM
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#21
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Immortal Elf Group: Validating Posts: 7,999 Joined: 26-February 02 Member No.: 1,890 |
Both are, but the creation rules at least tend to use more reasonable base costs. 14,400-nuyen for a simple Read/Write 6 utility? Please. |
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Dec 5 2004, 09:53 PM
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#22
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Moving Target Group: Members Posts: 210 Joined: 8-October 04 Member No.: 6,736 |
Remember that that Read/Write utility is letting you illegally read and write at 6 times your normal rate of success. A somewhat bright individual who doesn't know what he or she is doing but is using that "simple" utility will be about twice as likely to succeed (depending on TN) as a professional who doesn't have it. It seems to me that it isn't that bad of a deal, though it is somewhat overpriced.
Kind of a crummy wage for someone who is a high-end talismonger. A skill rating of 6 may be common in the shadows, but your typical professional only has a 4. The rating 4 guy is going to make under 6000¥ per month, assuming no overhead other than the cost of materials. |
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Dec 5 2004, 10:33 PM
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#23
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Running Target Group: Members Posts: 1,049 Joined: 24-March 03 Member No.: 4,323 |
Right, and 6000 :nuyen: a month is more than enough to support a middle lifestyle - which is about what you can expect if you're not a wildly successful shadowrunner or a corp exec. Don't forget that Mr rating 4 Talismonger can also supplement his income setting up wards for 100 :nuyen: per hour if he needs a bit of extra spending cash. |
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Dec 5 2004, 11:10 PM
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#24
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Running Target Group: Members Posts: 1,428 Joined: 9-June 02 Member No.: 2,860 |
Hey, Doc, care to guess what some new stainless bolts are going to cost when I get done designing them, if you factor in the engineering costs? And the costs for buying the specialty stainless steel and setting up the tooling for a tiny run of bolts? I can entirely believe that speciality hacking software goes for 14,400 nuyen. You're not selling a lot of copies of something that cost a lot of weeks of writing effort. |
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Dec 5 2004, 11:20 PM
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#25
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Manus Celer Dei Group: Dumpshocked Posts: 17,011 Joined: 30-December 02 From: Boston Member No.: 3,802 |
Out of interest, how much will they cost?
~J |
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