 Elementals, Wastes of Nuyen? |
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 Dec 5 2004, 11:35 PM
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#26
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Decker on the Threshold  Group: Dumpshocked Posts: 2,922 Joined: 14-March 04 Member No.: 6,156  |
Well, as an analogy it's probably why government toilets cost $10,000 each. :P
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Dec 5 2004, 11:58 PM
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#27
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Immortal Elf Group: Validating Posts: 7,999 Joined: 26-February 02 Member No.: 1,890 |
Read/Write is not "special hacking software," just like most Operational Utilities (such as Analyze or Browse). It simply makes it easier for a user to transfer, create, or edit files. It's essentially a word processor/simple media editor/upload-download utility.
There's nothing illegal about it in any way, shape, or form. It's not rare (someone with an Etiquette of 2 or higher pretty much can get it, guaranteed). It's not a specialty item. And it's most certainly not a state-of-the-art recent breakthrough of technology. In other words, it's the equivalence of charging 14,4000 nuyen for something like Microsoft Office. As a comparison, Microsoft Office Professional 2003 is only $500. Even a Rating 3 Read/Write utility (which would be closer to Wordpad in its "power", with Notepad being closer to a Rating 1 utility) costs 1,800 nuyen. Note that without the utility, you're basically doing the equivalence of a COPY CON command in DOS. These utilities help you work more efficiently and better. |
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Dec 6 2004, 12:31 AM
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#28
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Shooting Target Group: Members Posts: 1,512 Joined: 16-August 03 From: Northampton Member No.: 5,499 |
Maybe not quite that much but i do see where your coming from. Another example that may make some of you sick. Games Workshop sell a space marine model for £7, staff can buy that model at "lead weight" which is £30 a kilo, which makes said model cost about 50p (might of changed this was 4 year ago), and im certain GW STILL makes a profit on that. What worst if they mail order it at lead weight, then the prices that they are charged are with flash and growths cut off thus it weighs less!! |
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Dec 6 2004, 01:02 AM
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#29
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Running Target Group: Members Posts: 1,049 Joined: 24-March 03 Member No.: 4,323 |
I think youre wrong there, Dr F. Unless I am mistaken, all of the utilities listed both SR3 and Matrix are, in fact, programmed for the sole purpose of aiding in illegal hacking of computer systems. Normal, non-illegal attempts to read and edit files would not involve making a test against the "File" rating of the host - at most, it would be a simple computer (4) test, if a test were required at all. I dont have my books with me to back this up with numbers and the like, but, honestly, I think you might want to re-evaluate your position on what utilities actually are. If nothing else, the cost certainly makes more sense when viewed in this light. Oh, and since you seem to be implying otherwise: availability has absolutely nothing whatsoever to do with how easy an item is to find legally. I wouldnt say that its even possible to legally acquire decking utilities, since, by their nature, they're used for illegal purposes (though "security deckers" would be able to acquire them quasi-legally through their employers). So, while it might be easy for someone with an Etiquette of 2 to find such a program, they would still need to know an appropriate contact. |
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Dec 6 2004, 01:03 AM
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#30
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Manus Celer Dei Group: Dumpshocked Posts: 17,013 Joined: 30-December 02 From: Boston Member No.: 3,802 |
This isn't a fair assessment, IMO. Read/Write, Browse, etc. only apply when accessing a system illegally; they are not used by legitimate users. Read/Write probably has more to do with the spoofing of the access logs, reading the bits from RAM or getting the system to write the new version as a cron-job so that there isn't anything noting it as suspicious, etc. than the literal act of altering the text. And no, I don't think there's a defensible modern-day analogy for the way it works, but then the systems are rather different and I personally prefer that the description apply to what it does that the user cares about than necessarily all of the details of how. Edit: I'm slow today. ~J |
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Dec 6 2004, 01:06 AM
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#31
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Decker on the Threshold Group: Dumpshocked Posts: 2,922 Joined: 14-March 04 Member No.: 6,156 |
This isn't true at all. Read/Write isn't an editing program at all; in fact, changing the contents of a file on your own "hard drive" requires no test at all, let alone any test which the R/W utility assists at. Certainly you don't have to make a test using your Read/Write utility after, for example, a full day of writing a new program or anything. Further, if you are logged in legitimately, and have legitimate access to the Files subsystem of a host, you can create, edit, etc. any files you have access to without a test. Read/Write, like all of the decker's other utilities, are designed with one thing in mind: pulling off operations that you're not supposed to be allowed to do, and the host is actively trying to stop you from doing. Download data, Upload data, Edit file... all of these are actions that you are performing illegally on another host, which is the only reason you need to make a test in the first place. So Read/Write is, in fact, a hacker utility, and like all other hacker utilities are fairly specialized in its purpose and market, and thus most likely expensive. (Edit): Wow, I knew I was a slow typist, but sheesh. :) |
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Dec 6 2004, 01:10 AM
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#32
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Immortal Elf Group: Validating Posts: 7,999 Joined: 26-February 02 Member No.: 1,890 |
Find me a quote that says that all Utilities are for illegal users only. Then try to explain to me the point of having legal Cyberterminals with MPCPs over 1.
There are illegal Utilities. Just like there are illegal Cyberterminals. That doesn't make all Utilities or all Cyberterminals illegal anymore than riggers or the occasional illegal accessory make all vehicles or vehicle accessories illegal. Operational Utilities like Read/Write allow you to perform standard operations more effectively. That's all. It's what you do with them that makes the action(s) illegal, not the ability to do so. To say otherwise is to say that, for example, Adobe Acrobat is an illegal utility because it allows you to edit and manipulate copyrighted PDF files. PGP must be a tragically illegal bit of software because it allows you to both Encrypt AND Decrypt files more effectively. The horror. You guys seem to be the ones with the preconceived notions here. |
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Dec 6 2004, 01:20 AM
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#33
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Manus Celer Dei Group: Dumpshocked Posts: 17,013 Joined: 30-December 02 From: Boston Member No.: 3,802 |
Given that the only given use for utilities is to reduce the TNs on System Tests, this clearly outlines their uselessness to any but a system administrator, security decker, or illegal decker. Your point with Encryption is harder to challenge. Decryption, however, is a method of cracking Encryption that is better than brute-force but does not involve having the proper keys; as such, it is not comparable to a legitimate user using PGP (which just provides the encryption, it doesn't make it easier. Easier encryption requires specialized hardware or better processors). Acrobat allows me to edit a copy that I have Write permissions to, but still does not allow me to alter the Read-Only version on your server. ~J |
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Dec 6 2004, 01:24 AM
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#34
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Immortal Elf Group: Validating Posts: 7,999 Joined: 26-February 02 Member No.: 1,890 |
Well fine, try this on for size.
Matrix p. 68: "Utilities are the lifeblood of deckers, and are quite useful to non-decker users as well." Note the use of "non-decker." While the game revolves around deckers, that doesn't make everything a decker uses illegal or dedicated solely to their existance. |
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Dec 6 2004, 01:28 AM
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#35
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Manus Celer Dei Group: Dumpshocked Posts: 17,013 Joined: 30-December 02 From: Boston Member No.: 3,802 |
I can't imagine how, but I can't argue with the existence of the quote. Point that utilities may have non-security/illegal uses conceded, I'll have to think about the cost issue again.
~J |
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Dec 6 2004, 01:35 AM
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#36
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Moving Target Group: Members Posts: 210 Joined: 8-October 04 Member No.: 6,736 |
The emphasis is added. For read/write you don't need it if you are authorized to create or edit a file on the system. You only need to make a contest if you are trying to get information or put in information that you shouldn't be getting or writing. I never meant that the program is an illegal program in a law sense. It performs an illegal operation, which is something that Microsoft Office will not let you do. And if MS Office Pro is $500 (1000¥ or thereabouts, IMO), then you can expect to pay many times that price for a professional hacking tool. |
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Dec 6 2004, 01:35 AM
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#37
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Running Target Group: Members Posts: 1,049 Joined: 24-March 03 Member No.: 4,323 |
*baleeted*
eh, nevermind. |
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Dec 6 2004, 01:39 AM
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#38
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Immortal Elf Group: Validating Posts: 7,999 Joined: 26-February 02 Member No.: 1,890 |
You download the file. Edit it. Upload it back. Or just skip the transfer altogether and edit it directly. Just like when you try to edit any file on another system.
It's like the difference between using Notepad and a powerful WYSIWYG Web Editor (or any other program that has special features to make life easier on you) to create a web page. You can do the job with both, but you're going to be faster and more effective with the latter in that it helps you save time and use shortcuts to assist in the creation or editing of the file. Notepad would be a Rating 1 utility. The WYSIWYG editor would be a significantly higher rated one (depending on the program). COPY CON in DOS or its equivalence would be you doing it with no utility whatsoever. Several Utilities simply make actions EASIER. It's what you *DO* with them that makes something illegal. I don't know why you guys are having trouble wrapping your mind around that. There are illegal utilities (such as Black Hammer), sure, but that doesn't make all of them illegal anymore than the existance of a Morphing License Plate makes Improved Suspension illegal. |
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Dec 6 2004, 01:44 AM
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#39
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Manus Celer Dei Group: Dumpshocked Posts: 17,013 Joined: 30-December 02 From: Boston Member No.: 3,802 |
But they for the most part (especially Read/Write!) specifically make actions that the server forbids you from performing easier.
~J |
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Dec 6 2004, 01:50 AM
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#40
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Immortal Elf Group: Validating Posts: 7,999 Joined: 26-February 02 Member No.: 1,890 |
The quote you referred to does. The simple existance of Cyberterminals are meaningless if you're not going to bother with utilities. But whatever. You're running on your own preconceived notions with nothing to back you up in the rules. These utilities are listed, and have rules dedicated to, deckers. So, naturally, they must be decker-only regardless of how idiotic that would be for corporations to mass produce utilities just for all those lovely deckers to buy and use against their facilities.
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Dec 6 2004, 01:53 AM
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#41
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Manus Celer Dei Group: Dumpshocked Posts: 17,013 Joined: 30-December 02 From: Boston Member No.: 3,802 |
Well, I think a big part of the argument for the prices of such utilities would be that they aren't mass-produced.
~J |
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Dec 6 2004, 01:55 AM
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#42
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Immortal Elf Group: Validating Posts: 7,999 Joined: 26-February 02 Member No.: 1,890 |
An Availability of 4 strongly suggests otherwise. Your average person will almost always be able to score a copy of a high-end version just by looking around for one. Lower rating versions (1-3) are even easier to find.
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Dec 6 2004, 02:01 AM
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#43
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Running Target Group: Members Posts: 1,428 Joined: 9-June 02 Member No.: 2,860 |
What you describe is an Application, not a Utility. See pg94, Matrix. Word processors, video editors, and spreadsheets fall under the Application classification. Read/Write is a decking Utility. It's a cut above Applications and gives modifiers to decking rolls. That ain't simple word processing. |
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Dec 6 2004, 02:04 AM
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#44
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Immortal Elf Group: Validating Posts: 7,999 Joined: 26-February 02 Member No.: 1,890 |
Good luck to any of you suckers who want to compress your data into a Zip file. Only deckers, apparently, have access to such highly illegal software as Compressor. Wanna protect your system from unauthorized access? Sorry, chump, you can't use the highly illegal decker-only Guardian utility, either. etc. |
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Dec 6 2004, 02:07 AM
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#45
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Running Target Group: Members Posts: 1,049 Joined: 24-March 03 Member No.: 4,323 |
Again, Dr F, you are wrong in your interpretation of availability. Availability does not represent how much of an item there exists, but, rather, how easy it is to to convince someone who has access to that item to get one for you.
The sorts of people from whom you could buy utilities would, presumably, have access to resources like hacker house or similar sites, where you simply upload X :nuyen: and download a copy of the utility. Thats why the Availability is low in this case - not because the corps mass market the programs and its easy for a box of Read/Write chips to "fall off the back of a truck," but, rather, because its a relatively simple process, so it doesnt take much convincing to get someone to do it for you, as long as you have the money. Your average person does not know someone (or, at least, is not aware that he knows someone) with access to those sorts of resources, and, thus, wont be able to acquire them as easily as you claim. |
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Dec 6 2004, 02:09 AM
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#46
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Running Target Group: Members Posts: 1,428 Joined: 9-June 02 Member No.: 2,860 |
I didn't say all utilities were illegal or rare. I said I wasn't surprised that read/write was expensive. After all, there's applications for those users who want word processors and spreadsheets and other legal data editors. Whatever R/W is, it's something above and beyond the normal editing application. |
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Dec 6 2004, 02:13 AM
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#47
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Immortal Elf Group: Validating Posts: 7,999 Joined: 26-February 02 Member No.: 1,890 |
Compressor 6 costs exactly the same amount. The only difference between that and Compressor 1 is that it lets you zip up larger files; like a higher-rated Application such as a game.
But sure, I'll admit that saying that Read/Write isn't necessary a word processor. It's probably closer to a Hex Editor or the like, really, with tons of bells and whistles along the same lines as a top quality word processer at the higher ratings. That still doesn't make it illegal or limited solely to hackers. |
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Dec 6 2004, 02:14 AM
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#48
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Moving Target Group: Members Posts: 210 Joined: 8-October 04 Member No.: 6,736 |
Why are cyberterminals meaningless if you're not going to have utilities? You can still do any of those operations without a utility, it is just a lot harder. Of course they have no bearing on authorized users. Only the slave rating is somewhat ambiguous about whether an authorized user even needs to make a contest. I would hardly call this nothing backing me up in the rules. All these are from page 206, SR3.
Control Rating measures a system's resistance to unauthorized administrative commands. Index Rating measures a system's resistance to unauthorized searches. …whenever they attempt to illegaly read or write datafiles in a system. |
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Dec 6 2004, 02:15 AM
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#49
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Running Target Group: Members Posts: 1,428 Joined: 9-June 02 Member No.: 2,860 |
No, that doesn't necessarily make it illegal or solely limited to hackers. But the price suggests it isn't an everyday word processor, does it? |
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Dec 6 2004, 02:18 AM
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#50
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Immortal Elf Group: Validating Posts: 7,999 Joined: 26-February 02 Member No.: 1,890 |
You mean like the price for WinZIP's equivalence? That's 1,800 nuyen for the priviledge to compress a Rating 3 datasoft, or 14,400 nuyen if you want to zip up a Rating 6 datasoft. Or anything else that's Rating 3/6 respectively.
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